Additional charges to contract - Charging by m3 after laying

[ReadingAlex]

Hi all - first post,

As you can guess from my name I live in Reading.
My neighbour and I have just had a joint drive blocked paved by a Company based in Berkshire (no names yet).

The drive looks OK, dug out to about 200mm, geotextile membrane layed (over about 80%-they ran out!!), scalpings about 70mm, wackered, laying course 70mm, 60mm Formpave pavers, covering a quoted area of 139 m3.

All for £8300 (includes 4 recessed manhole covers), so just over £60 per sqm.

Had 2 more quotes, a smaller outfit who would take 2 weeks to complete, less money though and Anglian who (actually the less said the better - £14,000 plus!!)

These guys did the job in 3 days, maximum of 8 on the job.

Anyway, final settlement time.

They actually used 145 sqm of pavers (or so they say) and are now trying to charge us for the extra (£360).

Now I saw loads of knackered blocks removed. you know the ones that split wrong or off cuts which are too small, etc etc.

You guys are the experts, do you normally take into consideration the wastage? Is 4% (6 sqm out of 139sqm) what you would normally expect?

They also said they would lay to BS 7533-3:2005 which they did not.

There order of laying was:
Day 1 - Dig out all area to 200mm (5 guys - 6 hours)
Day 2 - Lay membrane, lay scalpings. wacker, deposit laying course in upside down funnel shapes (5 guys - 5 hours)
Day 3 - Level and wacker, then screed Laying course, lay restraints and bricks, leave exposed manholes. Remove manholes, angle grind, to correct level, install recessed manholes, wacker. (8 guys - 7 hours). Remove retraints, remove laying course below, replace with concrete, replace restraints ensuring same level as drive, add haunching to outside of restraints (2 guys - 3 hours). Add dried sand, wacker a final time and then spray with Keybond and Fungicide Inhibitor (2 guys - 2 hours)
(they arrived at 7am and last ones left at 7pm).

So as you can see they did not lay the edges first in concrete and then lay the drive to match the edges. Seems to me it's an easy way to skip corners, but will the end job be just as good??

Cheers all and thanks in advance for your comments.

[Dave_L]

EIGHT guys on the job????

I'd allow 5% for wastage and cuts - but you would normally over-order to the next full pack of blocks, if you get what I mean.

It doesn't matter how many metres of blocks they've used - it all comes down to the area covered, which would be detailed in your quotation. I don't think they have a leg to stand on, it's a bloody cheek to ask for it in the first place!

I'm concerned at (a) Only 200mm excavated? (b) only 70mm of "scalpings" and © over-deep laying course at 70mm.

Would you mind posting up a photo of the completed job?

[seanandruby]

Talk about two many cooks. not very professional at all, running out of material overcharging for breakages, upside down funnel shapes ( whatever that is? ) laying course too deep. photos please.

[Dave_L]

and surely if there was a "contract" then the area paved (139m2 and not 139m3 as you've put...) is the chargeable metreage and NOT the amount of blocks they've used to do so. That's their fault by either having poor quality blocks and/or inaccurate cutting.

[ambient]

if they measured it wrong its there fault when i quote for a drive it includes for wasteage,upside down funnel shapes does that mean a barrowful emptied in a pile

[Dave_L]

That's how I read it, anyway.

[dig dug dan]

i hope the "scalpings" were not tarmac chippings or road planings!?

[ReadingAlex]

Thanks for all the responses ....

A few replies
1) The 70mm laying course might be a bit high. If you see one of the pictures below you could problably work out what this would be after it was wackered.
2) 139 m2 is correct, 139 m3 was not !!
3) The "funnel shapes" can be seen on one of the photos.

Anyway, the best bit of information was the 5% for wastage, which just confirms that they are charging me for it.

The problem with the contract is that one of the clauses gives them the right to adjust charges if there are any last minute changes (that was the English version, not the legal one). When they arrived I asked for a kink in the left hand side of the drive to be more curved, so as they say "You changed what you wanted".

Anyway here are the pictures.

1 - the drive after digging out. The drop from the border in the middle of the picture was about 250mm, but elsewhere it was more like 200mm. End of Day 1.




2 - This is the scalpings arriving, which were laid over the membrane (pinky red in colour)




3 - Scalpings wackered, Laying sand deposited. End of Day 2.




4 - Finished drive today. There's quite a bit more to the right.




5 - Close up of inboard cutting - I am very impressed with the result though, comparing these pictures to some of those I have seen on other topics.




On the last picture, it was the bull-nose kerbs they lifted and concreted and haunched in. Oh and the turf is going to be laid properly tomorrow!!

[Rich H]

Incredible speed and a bit of a strange way to do it. If you're happy then no problem.

On the subject of the extras there is a simple moral - if they measured it short at the time of the estimate then tough, if it was built bigger because of a change on your part then you should shell out.

As a final note, if it's been built ok, you've got a good price. I struggle to make a profit on £60/m around here (also Reading) at the moment.

[Dave_L]

Well with the amount of blokes on the job, I'm not suprised at the speed!

As Rich says, bit of an odd way of doing the job!

Still, you've got a nice looking driveway there.

[lutonlagerlout]

the scalpings are MOT type 1
how do you know the laying course is 70mm?
without taking a core you cannot tell and it doesnt look 70mm from the amount of sand deposited

not overly happy with them doing the edges afterwards but i can understand why they do this

overall it looks tidy and well constructed,you are being charged for the extra work you asked them to do on the side== > kink to curve

people often ask us to do extra bits and pieces while we have our tools out ???

i think they have charged you for 6m2 over what was originally priced,and all things being equal you have a fair job there

LLL

[williams]

At first i thought 'pikey alert' but after seeing the pic i,m actually impressed,it looks good:)

Charging extra for their mis measurement thats not on though.

Imo a price is a price unless the job is drastically changed.

[Dave_L]

But in this case, the customer has asked for a variation from the original works - I'd say the charge in this case is reasonable.

[williams]

Ah missed that bit!

Well if you have asked for it to be a bit wider then i suppose its fair.
Personally for 6m2 extra i wouldn't be charging but i expect most would.

[ReadingAlex]

It's starting to get quite interesting....

1) I replied saying we are not paying for wastage, because blocks delivered does not equal blocks laid.
2) The extra kink in my drive I estimated at 1 m2, which is being generous.
3) I have paid the original contract plus £60 via internet bank transfer (I dont actually possess a cheque book anymore, so I asked them for bank details and they gave them to me).
4) My neighbour is now on holiday. The bank details arrived after he left.

We are now being threatening with our drive being dug up,
if we don't the pay the full amount by Friday.

We know this is an idle threat .... anyway, pictures will be posted on Friday evening!!

PS. What you see is Golden Brindle, we ordered Red Brindle. We realised the mistake before they started laying. They offered £260 if we accepted Golden, which we did.
We believe they (or the Salesman) are now trying to get this back by charging us more.