Ivory indian sandstone disaster? - Am i too fussy?!

[ferdy]

Hi! Delighted to find this forum! Like many, I'm not a patio expert, but I've been learning more as the new patio problems have unfolded...

I have some images (will need to figure out how to host them shortly) - but would also like some thoughts on the following situation please - I'll try and keep it simple!

Flags - Bradstone smooth Indian sandstone in Ivory
Bedding mix - 4:1 (not sure of materials, sorry)
Jointing mortar - Easyjoint in mushroom
Sealant - no idea!

Back in June I contracted an established and Bradstone assured landscaper to install a 25sqm patio. I asked up front to have it sealed, they recommended against this, and I said "OK!" as they're the experts. Here's what happened:

- Dug up old concrete patio, used left over bricks and slabs to create "rubble" sub base, then compacted
- slabs laid on individual beds over the course of two days - 4:1 mix
- Easyjoint applied using trowel method and minimal water
- RAIN
- Easyjoint started coming out of joints
- surface water not draining off (there is no soakaway - the patio is tilted two ways - once towards the decking, but the water doesn't go under it, it trickles along the edge, and then twists and water is directed to the FOUL PIPE on the side of the kitchen - this isn't right?!)

(went on holiday for two weeks)

so two weeks later:
- more Easyjoint coming out of the joints
- three slabs started rocking
- picture framing very noticeable around some slabs
- staining badly - cat paws, plant debris, general outdoorsy fluff and dust
- surface water still not draining and requires sweeping to dispel

Contacted the landscaper who a couple of weeks later sent one of the guys back round to fix the rocking slabs and "top up" the Easyjoint.

- Easyjoint continues to come out, is brittle and in some places now turning green!
- more rocking slabs
- more picture framing

Called him up again and said also explained frustration about the staining and he said he would seal it himself once fully dry, which he did. Resulting in:

- blotchy slabs
- sealant has pooled in corners of some slabs and gone shiny and cracked
- uneven seal that is both visible (looks like poorly applied varnish!) and also in performance - in some places the water is awash on the slabs
- brown marks now appearing on slabs when wet - although they do go when dry
- patio still marks and requires scrubbing/pressure wash with patio attachment (low pressure!) to get rid of

He has shown the pics to Bradstone who say there's nothing wrong with it (I'm not sure who to believe here, as Bradstone surely wouldn't be happy to see the state of their product!) - and is now waiting for Easyjoint to offer up their thoughts.

I've explained to him that I'm really unhappy with it, that it still looks terrible, rocking slabs, water not draining etc and now he's not responding to my emails (emailing rather than calling so all is documented!)

Now the thing is, am I being fussy?! Are all of these things par for the course of a new patio using these stones? I get that they're delicate and can be more troublesome than other stones, but surely not this bad?

Will try and get some pics up...

Thanks!

[lutonlagerlout]

Hi Ferdy
sadly most of our enquiries here are after the event
I know some lads on here swear by easijoint,but after years of trying I am done with polymerics
would rather pay a bit extra and use 2 part resin mortar
as for sealing?
what sealer was used
generally it is a better job to seal flags before they are laid in a temperature controlled enviroment
there is so much that can go wrong with sealing in situ I wont touch it with a barge pole
also no matter what sealer is used,it isnt kryptonite
if you get dirt on the flags you will get a muddy stain
some pictures would be very helpful
most of the photo sites are blocked with ads now ,have you tried dropbox?
cheers LLL

[ferdy]

Thanks!

Just been having Flickr wars... but here are some pics - I hope!!

I asked right up front to have the slabs sealed and they said they strongly recommend against it, didn't give any specific reason but did say it requires maintenance once a year. I'd rather that than having to pressure wash the patio every other day!

Jointing: https://www.flickr.com/gp/159725575@N07/958549
Picture framing: https://www.flickr.com/gp/159725575@N07/10vPt1
Sealant problems: https://www.flickr.com/gp/159725575@N07/Fn7zjc

I'm afraid I don't know what sealant was used, but perhaps it will be obvious from the photos!

[KeburDave]

We've had an ongoing issue with a smooth Ivory Patio for the last 2 years now!!! Its a slab that really is an absolute nightmare unless its pre-sealed!! Unfortunately the way it arrives most of the slabs have a fine powder left on them from the honing process so to pre-seal them it just isn't practical and as LLL said unless the sealing is done in a controlled environment all sorts can go wrong as we've found out the hard way!! Although a lot of people have there reservations about Easy Joint or any single part polymeric for that matter, we do use it, not on all applications and never had an issue with it, it does look like an application error to me as it shouldn't really be troweled in dry with minimal water, the mix should be 6:1 to allow the joint and bedding layer to be permeable. The picture framing this can occur when moisture sits in the joints and gets trapped so seeps into the side of the slab as they are so porous, a really good impregnating sealer would help prevent this, however it looks like a surface sealer has been applied. Once a sealer has been applied water will obviously be more visible on the surface than before but should drain away if the correct falls have been applied. Also we've found that those slabs don't adhere to well to mortar so should really have had a slurry primer applied to the back when laid to prevent any rockers!!

[ferdy]

Thanks Dave.

So am I justified in being unhappy with this? Installer is "surprised" that there are so many issues with it. I agree that the sealant used is wrong - as was his original advice not to seal it. Bradstone themselves say they strongly recommend sealing this particular stone. I just feel like matey is spinning me yarns. He also feels justified in the choice of 4:1 bedding mix and the trowel method for the jointing. Perhaps they've been doing it their own way for so long and this time it's backfired due to the colour and sensitivity of the stone. They did say they very rarely work with this stone.

Where do we stand on the soil pipe? It doesn't feel right that it's been cemented in, and that the water is directed to drain away in this way. Not that it does, without much encouragement from a broom!

I don't think the slabs had a slurry applied - I've been told by an old college friend who does some landscaping (but I can't pick his brains over this too much as he's super busy doing that, tree surgery and pig farming!) that lack of slurry will have caused the efflorescence that's appeared as well - albeit only since the sealant was applied.

[KeburDave]

Hello Ferdy,

Azpects recommend a 7:1 mix to allow the water to drain freely through the joints, a 4:1 mix there is a chance water will sit in the joints and the easyjoint not cure properly, the fact that the jointing has failed I cannot see how he can be justified in saying his 4:1 and dry trowel method is correct, it goes against all the manufacturers instructions. We've used a slurry on the back of Ivory slabs before and still had efflorescence come through so there is no guarantee applying it would have stopped its emergence. The worry is if you have efflorescence coming through after you have applied a surface sealer as essentially you have trapped it in!! Most surface sealers should not be applied to sandstone for at least 3 months after the paving has been laid. Cannot really comment on the drainage would need to see a photo but running it into a soil pipe is not good practice. You said the installer is Bradstone Assured this means that they would have to offer a 5 year workmanship guarantee and 10 year product guarantee, I would badger Bradstone and get one of their Reps out to inspect the site, I do know Bradstone have just employed a former landscaper to work on their Assured scheme, see if you can get him out to inspect the job and relay your concerns as it does sound like there has been a number of installation errors but saying that the Ivory Sandstone can be a nightmare to install and stains so easily.

[lutonlagerlout]

personally I always err on the side of more cement in a mix never less
we were laying porcelain today and we have used a rigorous 5:1 mix with 100ml of SBR in every mix
and each and every Tile has been slurry primed with Larsen

my personal experience of geo-fix,ropox easy,weatherpoint is that they look great for a few months but then accumulate a lot of dirt which is hard to get out

been using GFTK VDW 815 for 2 years now and very happy,it is slightly porous but is rock hard

looking at the OPs patio the jointing needs redoing
laying pattern etc looks Ok
the sealing is a mess
I wonder what they used?
LLL

[KeburDave]

LLL we generally lay all our paving on a 5:1 mix, but go up to 6:1 when using Easyjoint with an Instarmac slurry primer and never had a problem with the product or slabs lifting 7:1 is weak I agree. Used the GFTK 815 and 850 a lot but just find its not great for Honed Sandstones or Granite had few issues and if feasible would always have the paving pre-sealed when using the 2 part epoxys on that type paving.

[lutonlagerlout]

I agree it takes a lot of care when installing
its not a job for the labourer to do alone
I guess I am lucky that Londonstone do the presealing in advance.
we wont seal anything,seen so many noise ups not worth it once its laid unless done by a sealing pro
Did my mates Patio in raj green,lovely job
following year he had a BBQ and see the state of it
I asked him what he had done
thommos patio ruiner was his answer
cheap but not cheerful
LLL