Intro and a rant

[sy76uk]

On new build sites it's usually the ground workers that lay the buff riven 2x2s in the gardens on an hourly rate whilst all the block paving gets done on a price by subbies.

[lutonlagerlout]

the Patio we did last week in london the existing new build patio was 2by2 calder browns laid straight on to 50-70 mm of floor screed on the mud, no falls
the pointing was floor screed brushed into the joints and a hose or watering can put over them
every property in the road had the same crap detail
LLL

[seanandruby]

the Patio we did last week in london the existing new build patio was 2by2 calder browns laid straight on to 50-70 mm of floor screed on the mud, no falls
the pointing was floor screed brushed into the joints and a hose or watering can put over them
every property in the road had the same crap detail
LLL

I actually see guys laying like that almost everyday Lutes, it plays havoc with my ocd, i've walked off many jobs because of shite like that. It's hard not to say something.

[sy76uk]

It is a shame most new builds come with poor paving.
I'm suprised houses don't come with optional extras like cars do.

[JoelHall]

When i pull guys up on sub standard work you always get the cliche replies ie:- " i haven't got to live here, it's not my country, it's only a storm drain, or it's near enough so it's good enough. My answer to that is... it's not good enough because it's not near enough. This week i was told to backfill an area with several rest bend pop ups by a young "supervisor"( maybe 25 ) told him i need to concrete the bends first. His answer "we don't bother with that here." He also said "you not s'posed to have bends on foul are you." I kid you not he was serious. Yes i did over rule him and knocked up concrete to do bends. Serious lack of training in the industry. You wouldn't normally have an edge course on patio flags joel. The turf being uneven is probably down to differential settlement with uneven haunching, should of used sbr and do away with haunching altogether.

Sorry, haunching was what I meant, not edge course (like I said I'm far from a pro ). The patio is on a sideways incline, but stops for no reason (ie - to save cash over the whole estate) in front the door. So the slabs have slid, not by a great deal, but enough that we now have grass growing through the joints. Its actually a bizarre layout, where right by the door, the path doesn't go completely across.
I did a temporary fix by taking up the cheap turf, putting a base down and covering it with some Costwold stone chips a neighbour had left over. Ill post some photos when i get some memory spare on my phone.

[Tony McC]

There *is* a modern apprenticeship programme for the paving and hard-landscaping trades. I know there is because I bloody wrote it for the CITB back in 2008.

And the total number of apprentices that have done this programme? Nil. None. Not a one. Feck all. Nada. Zilch.

Could that be because funding is provided to create courses but none given to actually run courses?

There are also 3 different NVQ level 2's each teaching the same (again, I was involved in writing them!), but by having 3 different variations (building flavour, civil engineering flavour and amenity horticulture flavour), you get more govt grants. I asked CITB in a public meeting with Interlay members and bigwigs ffrom the paving industry why we can't have NVQ 3 when my daughter can get an NVQ 4 in hairdressing (no disrespect to hairdressers). I was told paving did not warrant a NVQ 3 because it isn't a skilled trade and instructed not to ask any further awkward questions.

This tells you all you need to know about how our trade is regarded by those who are paid lots of govt money to promote and develop skills in the construction industry.

[JoelHall]

You're right. That pretty much says everything. Not a skilled trade?
I think this site alone shows that not to be the case.

I can't see any reason why it can't be treated like construction NVQs, which go up to level 5, considering a paving company would surely require some of the same skills?

[Tony McC]

If the powers-that-be accept paving is a skill, and create the NVQ 3 (and NVQ4 too!) that we need, they would have to pay us more, and the last thing the big employers responsible for funding the training in the construction industry want, is people expecting better wages.

Since the end of apprenticeships in the 1980s, the whole drift of the paving trade has been to de-skill it and turn it into a 'labouring task' which can be done on minimum wage.

And that's why we have an over-reliance on east European labour, because they *do* get training back in their home countries, and are delighted to work for what we consider to be peanuts. What happens when Brexit sends them all packing? We haven't trained anyone to replace them, so we're back to the crap pavements and repeated, expensive failures of the 1990s.

[JoelHall]

Going down the political route, wouldn't UCATT, or other unions be able to hold a bit of sway if it comes to eastern Europeans heading home? Surely they'd have a faor bit of pressure on them themselves when the quality of work declines?

[Tony McC]

UCATT have limited powers on many sites where highway works are the main part of the package.

It seems that the majority of highway schemes are now outsourced to private contractors and they have, at best, a patchy relationship with unions. The work kept in-house by local authority highways is usually done by operatives that reside in or close to the borough involved, even if said residents are permanent migrants to Britain, and there's often a union presence.