There's a couple of pages on the site that might be worth reading - the Laying over a Base page deals, primarily, with block paving, but the principles involved are the same. The DPC page outlines a few 'workarounds' that might be feasible in your situation.

Where you want to extend the patio, then laying a new concrete sub-base makes sense, and would be the best way to do it, assuming the dpc problem is resolved first.

So, you're left looking at either the cheaper imports, the stuff at 18-20 quid per square metre, or the concrete copies. The cheaper stone isn't as tough as the good stuff, but there are some bargains, if you're prepared to shop around. The concrete copies...well, you need to be spending 25 quid or so per square metre to get the ones that actually look like stone. There's plenty that look like imitation stone in the 15-20 quid per m² range, and there's real crappy ones at 8-15 quid per metre.

You have to decide what suits your plans. Even the very best concrete copies will look even more like concrete copies in 10 years, whereas the genuine stone will always look like genuine stone. Have a look at a few more merchants. Kent-Blaxill in Colchester have a superb range of genuine stone and the concrete copies, so it might be worth paying them a visit to see if there's owt a bit cheaper that catches your eye.

Or have you considered one of the tumbled block pavers? They can give you an olde worlde look and feel at a price under 20 quid per square metre.

So, if they are laid on concrete or mortar over the existing concrete, the rigid bedding makes them just about strong enough to take low speed traffic from family cars and small vans. However, as wet-cast concrete with a decorative riven effect, they wear relatively quickly compared to a pressed concrete paver such as BS Flags or Block Pavers, and with the typical driveway layout, where you're tracking up and down the same strip day in and day out, they wear even faster, creating two stripes of exposed concrete where the decorative texturing/moulding has been eroded by the regular trafficking.

Given the cost of these flags, I'd strongly recommend you look to use a pressed alternative, such as the Drivesett or Driveline, and use the existing concrete driveway as a 'sub-base'. Using a 50mm thick paver on a 40mm bed of sand builds up the paving level about the same as a 40mm wet-cast patio flag and a 40mm bed of concrete/mortar, so there's nowt lost in that respect, but the pavers tend to be slightly cheaper per square metre than the better quality patio flags.

taking your questions one at a time...

- is it acceptable to have any pointing over the edge of the stone slabs? It looks messy, but is it even feasible/possible to avoid it?

It is NOT acceptable to have excessive mortar stains on the face of what are comparatively expensive flags. You employed what you took to be a professional paving contractor just to avoid this sort of problem. With some low-cost out-of-sight jobs, and, sadly, some public highways work, the flagger seems to get away with what we call 'slapdash' pointing, ie, the mortar is 'slapped' down on the empty joint and 'dashed' with the edge of the trowel to force it in. While this is sometimes acceptable to Local Authorties Highways Departments, who are more concerned with properly filled and tooled joints than with aesthetic, it is NOT the standard that can be reasonably expected on a residential patio using high-value flagstones.

This is some work I spotted on Regent St in London last year - personally, I would not have passed this work, but, obviously, some Highways Inspector in the Big Metropolis reckons that the volume of foot traffic will soon clear away the staining, and it will...eventually, but in the meantime, it looks like sloppy and careless work.  

On a residential patio, you're just not going to get the numbers of pedestrians to erase the staining, and, quite frankly, you didn't pay all that money to see mortar slopped all over the place!

- should the gaps between the stone slabs be a consistent size throughout the paved area, or is this expecting too much?

With the Liscannor Flags, you can't always get a universal joint size, ie, every joint at exactly 12mm, but it is possible to get every joint somewhere in the 9-15mm range, if the flagger is prepared to put in the effort and re-space the flags to even out joint width as required prior to final pointing.

- some of the slabs are "at angles" to some of the others i.e. the edge of one slab dips downwards while the edge of the next slab dips upwards. The difference in height between the edges is no more than 4 or 5 mm, but should we expect the slabs to be more "level" relative to each other?

This can happen when paving is 'rolling over' or twisting to tie in with varying levels. It's often overcome by using diagonal cuts across the flags, allowing them to be 'folded over', as shown here....

...but again, this just would not be acceptable on a residential patio.

Any lip of more than 6mm is a hazard. It should be possible on most patios to lay the flags in such a way that 'lips' are eliminated or minimised so that they are not more than 3mm, unless you have an unnatural amount of twist on the patio.

- there are two or three small pieces of stone (about 50mm square) used in various places, presumably to avoid extra cutting of the slabs around them - is this common practice or should they just have gone ahead with the extra cutting?

Without seeing the work, I can't really say, but it does sound iffy. We always try to eliminate any pieces of flag that are less than one-third of a full flag, unless there is no other simple way of piecing-in.

- for slabs that are laid on a wet mix, should any of the slab move when stood on i.e. if one corner of a slab dips by 1 or 2 mm when you stand on that corner (all other corners seem fine), should that slab be relaid?

There should be no movement whatsoever. Not 1mm not 2mm, not 3mm, none, neamhni, nowt, buggerall. Those flags should be solid, and if they're not, then yes: they should be re-laid.

- should slabs laid on a wet mix sound hollow when you tap them?

Oh no!! The dreaded spot-bedding, beloved of TV makeover programs but despised by any professional contractor. It's amateur, despite what you might see in manufacturers' brochures, and it would get a contractor thrown off any reputable site. Flags should be laid on a full bed of sand or mortar/concrete, but NOT on spots of mortar for all the reasons listed on the Laying Flags page.

Overall, it sounds like a poor job and I'd suggest you put your concerns in writing to the contractor responsible and see what remedial action they propose. I'd start by asking for

• all mortar stained flags to be removed from the site and replaced with new.
• all joints to be evenly spaced prior to repointing
• all pointing to be cut out and re-done without staining or smearing
• elimination of all lips and trips
• replacement of all small 'bits'
• relaying of all flags exhibiting any movement. To be relaid on a full mortar bed. NOT SPOT BEDDING

Take photos of the existing work, using coins or a tape measure to indicate scale and put absolutely everything in writing. Don't rely on verbal promises - they're worth nowt, and any reputable contractor will not object to written agreements.

Let me know how you get on.  

So: these qualifications your man has. What would they be? There is no longer a nationally recognised apprenticeship for paving, something which galls me to the core, and there hasn't been since the days of <spit> Thatcher.

Strange as it may seem, damp or wet weather can make it seem that paving is no longer moving. The water gets into the joints, swells up the jointing material and thereby 'hides' slight movement. It won't hide severe movement, but if you're still worried, then get him back on a dry day.

As for the claim that "all patios have some movement in them, it's the nature of them", is complete and utter obllocks. If there is movement, why has he provided rigid (ie mortar) joints? If a pavement is flexible, then the jointing MUST be flexible, ie sand jointing or similar. Mortar is not flexible.

The fear of the 'stones' cracking is not the main concern with spot bedding. The voids beneath the paving can lead to settlement and they allow water to collect. And the claim that patios are not designed to be 'jumped upon'! Well, neither was my patio, but it can withstand the loads imposed by my 17 year old 15 stone eejit son launching himself from a ladder. Jumping would be considered a reasonable activity on any pavement - you try and stop kids from jumping (or adults, when they've had a few shandies at a summer bbq!!)

A 'mate' of his is unlikely to be impartial and allowing such an inspection to take place only undermines your case, as your man can argue that he even brought such-and-such-abody around and you still weren't convinced. You should choose an impartial inspector unknown to either party, but acceptable to both.

I repeat what I said last night. Put your concerns in writing so there is less chance for 'he said, she said' at some later stage, and everyone knows exactly which are the areas of dispute. It also helps ensure you get an answers to all your questions, not just the ones he feels he can bluster through.

Finally, be very, very careful with the acid wash. It can adversely affect the nature of those flags if it's not done properly.

Keep me informed.

Interlay, the trade body for Block Paving contractors has one or two members in the north of Ireland, if I recall correctly, but for flags/slabs, the tarmac, PIC and all the other types of paving work, there's nothing.  

I look forward to hearing what the 3rd Party Inspector has to say, once he's had a chance to review the work for himself. Be sure to let me know how it goes.

The reputation of this company is their most valuable asset - a good reputation takes a lifetime to earn and a moment to lose, so it's worth notifying Trading Standards of your dissatisfaction, or, if you're really 'aggrieved' (that's just a polite way of saying 'pissed off', isn't it! ) then you could follow the example of a householder in Warwickshire who, having suffered a similar fate as yourself, erected one of those A-frame double sided advertising boards outside their home, emblazoned with the legend "Crap Paving and Shoddy Landscaping by (such-and-such-a-body) - You've been warned!" - I thought that was quite clever.  

The type of paving you're planning to use for the patio will determine the best type of bedding to use, but for the usual patio flags, a 10:1 bedding mx, approximately 35-50mm thick, is a good option.

As for the <spit> decking, I wouldn't have it anywhere near my property. It's a nonsense in this soggy nation but then, there's no accounting for taste!  

You can buy a 'saxon' type edging kerb, or you can make your own by sawing off-cuts of the bought-in flags. Alternatively, you could use a brick or some other unit to form the edging. The key point is that it is bedded on and haunched with a concrete to hold it firmly in place, and that the flag at the edge of the terrace overhangs the edging by 25-40mm or so. It is essential that this flag at the edge of the pavement is bedded on a Class II mortar over the edging kerb, so that it cannot slip off the edge nor can it be cantilevered out of place by stepping on its extreme edge. Although the sketch shows mortar bedding to the right hand edge only, it is often a better construction to lay the whole flag on a full mortar bed.

The size of the step down to the lawn is adjustable. but 75mm-150mm is a reasonable step. I always say that anything less than 75mm is not a step: it's a trip.

I hope this makes it a bit clearer for you.  

It's a good idea to work out a laying plan in advance, so that you start in the far corner, and work your way out. If you know the sizes of the flags you'll be laying, it's easy enough to work out a plan similar to those shown on the Random Layouts page which will save a lot of head scratching and frustration when you're doing the actual laying.

Use a straightedge, at least 2.4m in length, to keep checking the floor for level. Unlike an external patio or pavement, there's no need for any fall, but, with stone flags, it's very easy to be misled, and what you think is 'level' is anything but. Trust your laying lines, the straightedge and the spirit level, rather than your eyes and intuition.

Have you thought about using a sealant once it's all laid?

I was talking with an importer last week and he reckons he can sell his top quality range of imported sandstone to the average DIY'er for well under 18 quid per square metre, plus the dreaded VAT, of course. At the same Exhibition, Travis Perkins were promoting the Bradstone products and they quote a price of 24.17 quid (plus VAT) for a 900x600 Old Town flag, which is the equivalent of....sit down for this...a whopping 44.75 quid per square metre - 52.58 quid per m² once you've given the Vatman his wedge!!

Obviously, Travis Perkins offer a discount for larger orders and to their trade customers, but I know which product I'd go for, if the choice was mine!

If you add the black dye to a yellow/buff building sand, you get a earthy brown tone. If added to a red building sand, you get a reddy-brown toned mortar, but, if you add it to a silver or white sand, then you get a grey or even a dark grey mortar. You can buy pre-packs of a definitely black lime mortar from the better BMs, and this is a good option for slightly larger jobs, as it guarantees shade consistency, which can be a bit hit and miss when you're relying on the very unscientific units of 'spoonfuls, spadefuls and bucketfuls' to mix a mortar on site.

Be warned: it takes a lot of black dye to make a very dark mortar and, if this is the route you choose, you need to be pretty accurate with your measuring. If you get too much or too little cement, or dye, then the shade of different batches of the cured mortar can be significantly different. And remember - a dyed mortar will typically get lighter as it cures - so, what looks a rich, deep colour in the wet, can look pale and pastel-like once set.

I suspect your best bet is a pecialist hard-landscaping supplier. Kent-Blaxill in Colchester (is that East Anglia??) have slate paving in various sizes, or there is Midland Slate & Tile in Wolverhampton who should be able to help.

Contact details for these companies are given on the Stone Paving Links page. Both companies will be delighted to hear that I referred you.  

...meanwhile, Stonemarket do a stone flag star feature as part of their Trustone range, of which I don't have a decent photies, so I scanned in this image from their catalogue...

...I know that other manufacturers also knock out their own versions of these motifs. Bingley Stone Centre, in West Yorkshire, were making a custom-designed star motif in stone paving when I visited them last autumn, and the moulds for manufacturing the components in wet-cast concrete are now available via at least one of the largest suppliers, so I expect to see several more 'versions' on the market in the coming months.

Fear not: it's not the end of the world if you omit the buttering. That method works best if you're going to be filling the joints immediately after laying, but, in cases such as yours where there's a delay between laying and pointing, then it's not critical.

And the idea of vacuuming out the bit of loose bedding in the joints is a waste of time. Ignore it - it's doing no real harm. However, dry jointing of this type of flag is rarely 100% successful unless it's done on top of still-plastic buttering mortar. It tends not to 'set' properly, remaining crumbly, and it doesn't bond to the edges of the flags, so it cracks and disintegrates and comes loose over a year or so, which is why it's not one of my preferred methods.

So, how do you deal with it? Well, the old trick of dry-grouting then sprinkling on water via a fine rose on a watering can improves the situation, but we find that it also tends to splash dry mortar onto the surface of the flags, where it's immediately wetted and will stain, unless it's washed off straight away.

This method can work, but, as I say, you need to pay attention to any splashing and, very important, you must tool the joints, pressing the damped mortar into the joints and polishing it to a smooth finish. The work is best carried out in the late afternoon or early evening of a dry day when there is no chance of overnight frost. This allows the mortar to cure overnight at a steady pace, rather than be scorched dry by the heat of the day.

Other options would be to do a wet-grout, but this can be hard, if not impossible, to clean from the delicately textured surface of the riven replicas such as Millstone, or, and I know you don't want to hear this, the best solution of all is traditional hand pointing. Slow, laborious, back-breaking, but by far the best.

If you don't mind spending a few bob, then you could opt to use a polymeric sand, such as GeoFix, or even one of the pourable jointing compounds, such as Ultracrete Flowpoint from Instarmac, but this is probably a bit much for a domestic patio.

Your next question refers to colour. All you can do is experiment. Mix your sands and cement and see what colours you achieve. Whether you use grit sand or building sand doesn't really matter with these wider joints, but the end colour of the mortar is largely determined by the colour of the sands, so, if you have a buff or yellowish grit sand, mixing that with a red-building sand may give the shade your beloved requires. If not, then it's a matter of adding a dye, a brown or a marigold should give the sort of tone you;re after, but remember, the colour of a wet, plastic mortar is not the same as the colour of a cured mortar. Do a few trial mixes to determine exactly the shade you want before starting on the pointing.

It's worth noting that, if you choose to use the dry jointing method, then the colour of a dye is much harder to implement, as it needs to be forcibly mixed in the presence of water, to properly colour the mortar. This doesn't happen with the dry jointing method, and what you end up with is a streaked or spotty mortar. If a coloured joint is required, then you really do need to use a wet mortar, but if a simple jointing procedure is more important, forget the dye.

A stick with a big nail in it will probably rake out the loose jointing, or you could use a roofer's hammer that has a pick end. A Nangle grinder will do it, too, but will spray the resulting dust everywhere and you'll spend as long cleaning up as you did cutting out.

Rake out as much as poss, sweep out as much of the loose material as is feasible, and then follow the advice given to George. I really do believe that traditional mortar pointing is the best jointing method for these riven patio flags, especially the ones with 'fettled' edges.

Any decent BM will stock one or t'other, or you can buy piddling 10 square metre 'mini-packs' online at the Terram Direct website.

Positioning the membrane seems to be a matter of opinion. There's a good case to be made for placing it between the sub-grade (ie, the clay) and the sub-base (what you might call 'hardcore'), as this will prevent the sub-base material sinking into the clay, but then, if you have an open-textured sub-base, as is often the case when relying on a non-DTp1 material such as your broken concrete and scalpings, then placing the membrane between the sub-base and the bedding layer (ie, the sand) will help prevent the sand being washed into any voids within the sub-base, which can lead to  settlement.

From what you have described so far, I suspect the clay is fairly firm and the sub-base material should be ok, so I'd probably go for a membrane on top of the sub-base. However, if you have more than enough, you could always double up, and use two membranes.  

Let me know how you get on and which option you go with.

As for the manhole, if you've not already done it, you need to tell me what sort of manhole it is - a brick chamber? A round, plastic Inspection Chamber? Is it just the cover or is it the whole structure?

For your steps, take a look at the two pages that deal with building steps for small, domestic projects, that's the Steps page and the Steps for Block Paving page, which should give you some ideas.

Finally, your planned order of works sounds fine. I would probably do the manhole first, as that involves most disturbance to the sub-base, then the steps and then finish off with the actual paving, but, as I'm not familiar with the site, I'm only guessing and you should use your own judgement.

Hope that helps!

Don't worry about 'special' bricks - as long as they are concrete blocks/bricks, engineering quality bricks, or even bits of broken flags/slabs, that will be ok. It's just some of the softer (ie, cheaper) facing bricks that can turn to mush when in permanent contact with the ground.

Never a good idea to start digging out when you've nowhere to dump the spoil: it just doubles the amount of work needed, and if you think you're aching now, just wait until you've loaded it all into a skip!!

And to soothe "those aches and pains that we all get from time to time", I usually recommend a bucket of Guinness, a warm bath, and a hot woman with a penchant for massage, but not nesser celery in that order.

The method I prefer for both experts and novices is outlined on the Laying Flags page, and you certainly don't need any fancy 'rails'!

Neither of the methods you propose are any good at all, and I have to wonder whether it's a case of you not bothering to read the site, or if this is just a wind-up. If you put a Vib plate over flags/slabs, you'll smash them to pieces, and, if you lay on spot bedding, you're storing up trouble for next year.

Please read at least some of the site before asking for answers to questions that are already exhaustively covered within the site.

You got all excited over properly-laid paving? You're getting as bad as me!!  

You need a touch of fall on your shed base, just to ensure that surface water doesn't pond underneath and start to stink or cause problems, so 30mm or so should be plenty, but is not enough for you to notice that the shed is leaning slightly once erected. If you want a perfectly vertical (plumb) shed, then you can always adjust the bearers beneath the shed with small 'packs' to accommodate the gentle slope, but, at this stage, I'd say get the base laid with a modest amount of fall, and then worry about the shed itself. Any signs of 'wobble' are pretty easy to rectify.  

There's nowt wrong with the Bradstone Old Town flags, structurally speaking - they leave a lot to be desired in terms of colouring and price, but that's another discussion. They are no more prone to rocking than any other flag that's available. Rocking is a result of poorly compacted bedding rather than anything inherent in the flags themselves (most of the time!)

You wonder why they "suddenly" seem to have started rocking. The most likely explanation is that they were probably rocking very slightly before you pointed the joints, but, because the joints were empty, the very small degree of movement was much less noticeable, and it's only because the pointing mortar itself is now cracking that you're suddenly aware of the problem.

So: how to fix. Well, sometimes they can be held firm by raking out all of the old mortar and re-pointing with a strong (4:1 or Class II) mortar, but, for those exhibiting more of a wobble, then a favourite trick of mine is to make a wet mortar slurry (see Wet Grouting) and pour that into the emptied joint, then straddle the flag and shift your weight about, causing the flag to wobble, so that it draws in the mortar slurry to fill any voids or slack spots beneath it. Once the slurry has 'set', the flag should be 100% solid.

You may find that one or two awkward sods absolutely refuse to co-operate and continue to rock despite your best efforts, and then there is no alternative but to lift them and re-bed them. Scrape out 25mm or so of the original bedding and replace it with fresh, damp (NOT wet, just damp) 6:1 mortar, then re-lay the flag and tap down to level with your clonker. Point the joint immediately, and keep it free from any traffic (that includes pedestrians!) for at least 24 hours.

Good luck!

However, if you've your heart set on a particular TruStone product, then there are no problems with it and it's just as good as any other imported stone on the market, with the advantage of being fairly readily available from a wide range of outlets.

Which particular 'TruStone' did you fancy?

Funnily enough, it also comes in 4 sizes and 12.8m² packs!  

Anyway, what you mustn't do is use oil! It'll turn your lovely Indian stone into an Indian icerink and you'll be needing a season ticket for A&E!

There are different types of sealant. Some are glossy, some are 'low sheen', and some have no discernible effect on the appearance, but protect the surface from everyday stains (allegedly!) I guess that what you're looking for is one that's somewhere between low sheen and glossy, so you could try Resiblock "22" Ultra or the Hagesan Impregnating Sealer. However, you really need to test these out in a discreet corner or on an old offcut of your paving before committing yourself. It's not unknown for sealants to have 'peculiar' results on some types of natural stone.

If you can hang on until next weekend, I've a couple of meetings next week at The Stone Show in London Village when I hope to obtain samples and a fuller picture of just what's available, what it looks like when applied, how much it costs, where you can get it, along with what others in the stone trade reckon to be their personal choice.

Given the weather forecast, they'll have a natural 'wet look' for most of next week, anyway!

Anyway.....

Sealants:

I looked at a couple of sealants while I was at the Stone Show in London last week, and it came as no great surprise to be told by each of the manufacturers that their particular product was the best available, the most cost effective, the market leader and the only one I would ever need.

So, taking the various options in no particular order....

Delta: An Italian company that is relatively new to the UK market, but they promise an aggressive marketing strategy in the coming year.

Wet Seal - "Anti-Stain Wet-look finish for unpolished marble, granite and natural stone" - the bumf claims this jollop protects the stone from moisture and general stains while bringing out the vibrant colours and textures of natural stone. It claims to be long-lasting and then goes into some owld guff about being technologically advanced and protecting the stone from within. It does not create a film or plastic-laminate look, is UV resistant and allows vapour to escape.

2 coats recommended and expect a coverage rate of 8-10m² per litre and a cost of around 20 quid per litre!!!

More info - I spoke to Franco Harris and you can email via stonecarebydelta AT yahoo.co.uk or call their Slough HQ on 01628 602325

Lithofin (Lye-tho-fin): A German outfit with many years of experience. Fairly well-established in the UK, but products can be hard to source. They promise to rectify this immediately, possibly in the light of Delta's marketing claims!

The MN range (catchy name, I know!) is aimed at natural stone and concrete products
MN Stain-Stop is a solvent-based silicon gunk that is absorbed by the stone but does not alter its appearance, for which you need another MN product, the MN Colour Intensifier. Stain-stop covers 6-8m² per litre on a typical sandstone, as does the Colour Intensifier, and prices are around the 30 quid mark for a litre. For those with an aversion to solvent-based sealants, there is a water-based alternative, StainStop W, which has a slightly better coverage rate, 8-12m² per litre, but, if it's owt like other water-based sealants, it won't last anywhere near as long.

More info - I don't know who it was I spoke to, except that he seemed to think I should pay for the privilege of featuring his products on my website - I put him right on that!  
The UK operation is based in Alresford in Hampshire and run by CASDRON Enterprises (their capitalisation, not mine!) tel: 01962 732126 or email sales AT lithofin.co.uk

Other products:
These items were not at the Stone Show but I've discussed their products with them on previous occasions....

HG Hagesan - a Dutch crowd with a good reputation and decent distributor network via Topps Tiles. Their most suitable product for stone flags outdoors is probably the Impregnating Sealer, a non-silicon based protection system.

The UK HQ is in Colchester - Tel: 01206 795200 and their Website offers more info.

LTP International - A British company with a basic range of products aimed primarily at Terracotta tiles, but also suitable for stone and/or concrete flags, they say. The products I've seen do not give a wet-look, although they seem to have a more extensive range which includes wet-look sealants.

Tel: 01823 666213

Web - Website

Then there are the companies listed on the Sealants Links page. Resiblock can't be faulted but their products are aimed more at concrete rather than natural stone. Ronseal/Thomsons are the 'Jack of all Trades' and I've seen some terrible varnish-look pavements that have been daubed with Water-seal, and Hexham haven't supplied me with any info on the suitability or otherwise of their stuff on stone paving.

Speaking with other professionals in the stone paving trade, most are loathe to use sealants on natural stone, but know that it's becoming popular for patios and so, like me, have been trying to establish what's what and what's shite. I suspect that quite a few suppliers will start to recommend certain products later this year or for next season, but, I'm stil confused. I'd really like to try out some of these products for myself, on natural stone flags and setts of various types, so I'll try and arrange a mass testing trial later this summer with a view to putting up pictures and comments in time for next year.