We subsequently planted ordinary grass in between the stones. This gave a beautiful appearance but became a maintenace nightmare. Without weekly trimming, the grass soon crept over the stones and covered them. Considering there are hundreds of stone-stone interfaces, this became unmanagable.

We are in the process of removing the grass. We wanted to know your suggestions on what to do to anchor the stones. We would consider replanting grass, if there were some variety that only grew to 1 or 2 inches, and would not require such intense care. We would consider other options, but are not keen on the idea of concrete etc. Our winters tend to be harsh with a fair degree of soil movement.

We have tried sand and small rocks but both were quickly washed away. The stones have been in the ground for who knows how long and I am not sure how they were originally set. I suspect they were just put in the dirt. The large stones are hundreds of pounds, and have not been a problem with regards movement. However, the washout between them and the surrounding stones can be quite significant. The smaller stones, less than 100 pounds, are the problem children.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Kerry

Kerry

thanks for the reply. in answer to the questions:
The flags were bought from a builders merchants in Bury, Lancs. we have contacted them and a rep was sent out from Marshalls. they declared that the flags were fine, even though badly discoloured and look absolutely terrible.

we received a letter from marshalls to say the rep thought they were fine. we are currently in the process of writing another letter to Halifax office, as we are far from happy.  the driveway cost over £400 to do, and they really need ripping up.  the old flags were far better than the new ones.

we want the money back for the flags, or replacement, or some contribution towards the cost of putting the driveway right.  

it should be noted that there was nothing written on the packaging explaining that the flags were not suitable, and no advice was given at the builders merchant.

this will be sorted we hope, and we are seriously considering contacting watchdog or similar for advice.

even if the flags were not meant for our use, then i wonder what they should be used for?  they are an embarrassment and look horrendous. surely this is not good for marshalls???

we will let you know what happens.  this is not the end.

thanks
cath

I've emailed contact details to you directly. Please give me a call or email me with the precise quantity of units and I'll arrange free delivery of replacements.

David Sarti
Operations Director - Marshalls

(ps - we do not monitor this site, or any other for that matter, I just came across you're posts whilst looking for some advice for myself!)

I am glad to report that the flags are now down, and the 190m UFH cable (ebeco) is in place! After some over complex calculations before we started we finished within 9 inches of the end of the room, not bad really, as the cable cannot be shortened!

Anyway, I have not tested the system yet, so it is a nervous time, and before I can I have to point the flags.

I have read the various posts regarding pointing, but I need some really basic tips as all this is new, and I do not want to spoil what so far has been a rewarding experience.

So here goes.

1. I was planning on using a 3.1 mix for the pointing. Is this correct?

2. The sand I have is quite gritty, will this be OK?

3. Do I need to add Feb to the mix?

4. How do I stop from staining the flags with the mortar?

5. If I do drop mortar on the flags am I best waiting for it to dry and brush off, or use a wet sponge to attack it straight away?

6. Any other tips I need?

Your advice last time was very useful, and was put into practice. As promised I have take loads of photos and will be sure to post upon completion!

Thanks in anticipation
Mark

It took some time and squabbling - not to mention cash-but we got there! Passers by stopped to comment on the "good job" we were making and we even passed on the name of the product to two lots of admirers. We were delighted with our efforts and paving, and felt our money had been well spent. As the Stonemarket brochure promised, the flags look their best when gleaming with rain - and we certainly get plenty of that in Preston. The bad news is they now gleam for other reasons.

The aggregate is beginning to show through on the edges of a large number of the flags (and those of the friends whose patio inspired us to follow suit) They are clearly fake! We're in a quandry - how do we finish the job? Despite the passing of 3+ years we still have unsightly grey hardcore linking front of house to back! Do we assume we and our friends got a bad batch of flags and quality control were having an off day and buy some more? Or is it likely any future supplies will look genuine only for 4 years so we need to find an alternative?

Any thoughts on the subject would be welcome whilst we pen our letter to the company seeking its comments.

Just some background first:

We have recently had our backyard paved with Stonemarket indian flags. The total area is about 95sqm. There is a patio section in a dark limestone color, which comes out from the house about 4m, then a lighter color is layed directly adjacent running out to the fence and to the side of the house. In the middle of the light colored area an admiral star pattern has been layed, which is circular but we purchase a squaring off kit for it which makes the shape square. A professional marshall accredited landscaper was engaged to do all the works, which came to a total labour cost of about 3500 pounds.

The first piece of work performed was the patio area, which was layed almost to perfection. All gaps were in the range of 10-15mm, all stones were laid straight, and we were very happy with the work.

Next the admiral star pattern was layed. We queried the contractor about doing this before the surrounding stone was layed, and he assured us he knew what he was doing, so we let him go. We did also ask him whether he needed to measure and distances before laying this pattern (my wife indicated where we roughly wanted it, but we thought he would need to measure things so that it could be laid square), but he again assured us that he knew what he was doing so we shut up. The pattern was laid and it looked great.

The next section layed was a 1m wide strip running away from the patio flush against the left hand fence. The flag sizes were a mixture of 1x1, 2x2 and 1x2. At the landscapers request we were not present on site during the day at all, so we arrived home in the evening do discover:

- gaps in the stone ranging from 10mm to 60mm
- most stones were not square to each other
- the stones were not square to the fence
- the stones were not square to the admiral star pattern.

I spoke to the landscaper that same evening and asked if he still had more to do before completing that work (I could not believe it was complete because it looked so different to the first piece of work he had done). He replied calmly that yes it was, and he was going to continue in the same fashion for the rest of the yard. I explained that we were very unhappy with the workmanship, and he asked if we wanted him to rip it up and do it again - I replied yes. He initially said we would have to pay extra, but I stood my ground and he relented. During this conversation I repeated several times that I did not want to see any gaps exceeding 20mm, but to aim for 10-15mm as the norm, and he agreed.

I also raised the issue with him that having measured distances between the house, fence and edges of the admiral star pattern, that there was a 1:30 run out of square on the edges. I asked if he would be able to lay in a way that this could not be noticed and he assured me he could.

Well, the next day I went through these details again with this co-worker (who generally arrived long before he did), and made it clear about what we wanted (the same standard as the patio).

When we arrived home that night we were pleasantly surprised to see much better workmanship, although some of the gaps were 30-35mm. I was prepared to let one or two go, however the next morning I re-iterated that if any further stones were laid with such a big gap we would reject the work. He had not done anthing about the star pattern at this point, and the run he had laid was still about 1.5 feet away from the edges.

The next day he layed some more stone near the patio, and adjacent to the star pattern. He had cut some stones at angles to make them fit. When we saw this, it was very noticable that the star was out of square, and we reluctantly asked him to please re-lay it square (since that's what he should have done to start with). He was not very happy about it, but he agreed to.

The star was re-laid that day and it looked much better. He then proceed with the next piece of work.

Again he had laid some stone with large (30-40mm) gaps. When we saw him the next day we asked him to re-lay those, and not to exceed 10-15mm. He then said he didn't realise that we felt so strongly about big gaps, but he would be careful in future (I don't know how I could have communicated it any more strongly without shouting it at him

The next section was laid very nicely - no complaints.

The next section - nearing the end - guess what? - In one section he had 30-35mm gaps, then as he approached the wall he had to cut stone to fit - I just could not understand how he could ignore such simple requests. Both my wife and I were starting to feel weary with the whole process at this stage though (5 weeks since beginning, my wife having to leave home each day and loiter elsewhere while he worked), and we decided to let it pass, and hope that when it was pointed it would not be too noticable.

The final section laid was a small path to our rear gate (1mx3m), and the work was not great, but it was acceptable (20-25mm) gaps, not all stones square - this was using the smaller stones.

Some of the stone was left several weeks unpointed at this stage. and the first 5 weeks of weather (aug, sept) was fantastic. The only stone that had been pointed at this stage was the patio area, which was a wet-mix and had only been done because we had badgered him so we could use the area.

Finally he came with some extra workers and did all the pointing in 2 days using a dry mix. He claims to use extra concrete in his mix to make it work better.

The rain had begun now and he had to point on dry days (2 days 3 days apart).

We gave the point 3 days before using the area, and our usage is only light pedestrian traffic. But we noticed that some of the stones were loose - some with a small hard to notice wobble, some a very bad wobble.

The pointing also had not seemed to set properly, and was flaking, and falling apart - some areas worse than others.

We called the landscaper back and asked him to correct it. He came and inspected the problem, then came back to me with the following statements:

1. He agreed the work was faulty and needed fixing.
2. He demanded that I be present while he did the repairs so that I could approve the work then and there.
3. He demanded that my wife not be present.
4. He demanded that the final payment be made before he would proceed. At this stage I had paid 3000 out of 3500, and at the advice of Marshalls (we spoke to them about it), we refused this final payment until the work was fixed. At this point he said he would have to get further advice, and get back to me.

The next day he contacted me and agreed that he would do the work ASAP without first receiving the final payment, but all other conditions held. He then said that he would be coming around that afternoon to barricade the yard off from the patio so that our children could not disturb the work whilst he was working. After barricading the area he would 'make contact' with me and plan the next step.

I replied that I was very unhappy with setting up a barricade until we agreed when the work was going to be done, because I was concerned that it might be weeks or months before the work was done. He said he couldn't give me an estimate of when he could do the work because he was too busy to work it out. I asked him to work it out and get back to me.

That was a month ago and I have not heard from him yet. sigh.

Now to my questions:

1. given the current weather conditions, is it unreasonable to expect him to do the work successfully until the weather clears?
2. Should we be expecting this to not happen until spring?
3. Since the rain has increased, we have now noticed a large puddle forming (2mx3m) and about 10-25mm deep where the light paving joins to the patio area (event the nicely laid patio looks like the run hasn't been set properly). I thought it was standard practice to make the runoff away from the house and not have puddles, and in any case we explicitly asked him to plan the runoff away from the house towards the fence, which he agreed to.
4. How much work is likely to be involved to fix the puddle?
5. How much work is likely to be involved to fix the pointing.
6. How much work is involved to fix each wobbly stone.
7. What is reasonable for us to expect from him in terms of quality (he is a Marshalls gold-member)

We really want an amicable solution, but at the moment we feel that we have paid a small fortune (8500 in total) for a job to be done well, and it has been almost ruined by his current workmanship.

We really need some professional advice about what is fair in terms of our own expectations, so that we can approach him with confidence. For example is it fair to be fitted around other jobs he is currently doing when he still hasn't finished ours?

As a last resort I guess we could get someone else to come and fix the job, but the way I see it, that would open up a pandora's box of legal issues, who would honour guarantees etc.

Your advice in this area would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Toomuchcoffee

Anyway, i'm shortly having a conservatory built, which will reduce the patio to about 3 x 5.5m, so i thought i might re-lay the patio myself, with random, riven buff flags.

Here's the plan!
If i can get the old flags up and remove the blinding layer without damaging the sub base too much, i hope to relevel the sub base with a vibrator plate, screed a 10:1 40mm bedding layer, lay the flags, and then dry point 4:1.
1) Will dry pointing be suitable, as it seems a lot quicker than the wet re-pointing that i have had to do.
2) Once the 10:1 bedding is mixed and is down on the sub base, how long will i have to lay the flags before it starts to " go off " and is no longer workable (probably depends on weather conditions i guess)
3) Would you advise screeding across the whole depth of patio ( 3metres ) by 1.5 metres or so across the width, flagging, and then repeating, or perhaps using another technique?
4) Is it advisable to dry point as i go along, so the bedding doesn't go off before i get to point, as i don't anticipate being able to finish the whole patio, and then point it within the same day
5) The patio unavoidably slopes towards the house, so i already have a gutter channel layed between the patio and house. Will dry pointing be waterproof enough to withstand the water moving across the surface to the drain, or will some of the water seep down through the pointing and end up causing more problems with rocking flags?

Apologies for all the questions, but i want to do the job properly, and once only !
You're comments and advice would be greatly appreciated ! !

Finally, may i congratulate you on just about the most informative, relevant, and professional website i have visited for a long time. You are a credit to your trade.

Mark.

Thanks again for your help already,
Mark

I am building a raised patio which extends 4m out from the house, is 7m wide and 1m high. The very gravelly soil I have excavated for the footings will allow me to infill up to a height of about 300mm. I was going to use crushed concrete to make up the remainder.

Will this provide a stable enough sub base, and at what heights do you suggest I compact it before adding another layer?

Can you clarify one thing? The raised patio effectively has four retaining walls; the back of the house, 2 extending out from it and another paralell to the house.
Do I need to lay perforated drains at the foot of each wall?

Many thanks - Andy

Do you have any recommendations for laying paving around pools?

Thanks in advance

We also are looking to use two part epoxy to bond the stone to a set of brick / wood steps, any known problems with this technique?

The main reason for choosing the crazy paving, rather than Yorkstone / Indian sandstone regular flags is that the path is basically an elongated 'S' shape, and will require large amounts of cutting to shape and the steps mentioned above will need a load of detail work for the flags. The decision came down to cost:
c. £10/m² for Kerridge crazy
c. £20/m² for Indian
c. £30/m² for Kerridge regular

Given the shape and design, we will have to throw about 30% of the regular stuff away! Hence the choice of crazy paving.

How do you achieve this, is there a colour additive available, and if so, where from?

The owner obtained the flags from Dolmens in West Yorkshire (about 200 sq. m) and asked a contractor to lay them. Some problems have occurred since which the owner has asked me to look at. Firstly, some of the pointing is breaking up and can be easily rubbed up with the heel of a boot. It looks like a sand grit mix but with a varied and lean cement content. Secondly, some of the slabs are rocking although this is relatively few in relation to the area. After lifting several of the flags, they are very irregular on the underside and have been laid on spot bedding. However, the contractor did lay a 100 thick concrete sub base underneath.

The owner thinks that all the paving needs to be completely relaid due to the spot bedding but as it is on a concrete sub base, I'm not sure if this is overkill, particularly as it's such a large area involved.

Also, as the joint widths are very irregular and very wide in places, what sort of pointing method is best?

Your comments would be very much appreciated.

There is approx 30m² of paving for the drive and 30m² patio plus paths. How long might the drive/patio last do you think or does it need repointing urgently? Having lost faith in the builder and his workmanship (for more reasons than the paving) I am reluctant to get him back to do any repairs and wonder if I could tackle it myself section by section or do I need to get in someome who knows what they are doing?

One other thing – I read your section on DPCs. At the rear of the house, the builder has put in a step adjoing two sets of french doors. It abuts 4 metres of wall and starts 10cm below the DPC and finishes 5cm above it.  There is some blue plastic membrane peeking up from behind the brick edging (what do I do about that? – very unattractive) but no dry gully has been constructed as you describe in your section on DPCs. Is this likely to cause long term problems?

Your web site is really excellent; great information, well set out – just the sort of thing we want to find on the web but rarely do.

Thank you. - Anji

I have put a couple of photos of the steps on:

As for crazy paving - call me old fashioned, but I rather like it (when done properly, of course). We have a 1930s house, white painted roughcast house, green roof tiles and not a bare brick(*) in sight;  Brick block paving, preferred by Bob the builder, really wouldn't suit.  I walked the local area looking at different surfaces and was happy with crazy paving as an alternative to brick.  We did suggest some other options but when he started working out how much extra to charge us we stuck with the "cheaper" option.  (Labour costs didn't seem to bother him as the men were on his books anway and they seemed to tackle our paving as a fill in job during gaps in their other contracts).

* Lots of brick now as Bob's blokes edged the paving with brindle brick - still not sure if it clashes or not.  

I would also like a mowing edge around the greenhouse. Once again what do you think would look best. I don't want it more than 12" wide.

In terms of the inside of the greenhouse what kind of a finish do you think would look nice? I'm not keen on plain grey slabs. I want something that is traditional and will look good against the dark green finish of the greenhouse. The greenhouse should last more than 30 years so all materials will ideally need to last as long.

I have a Travis Perkins near me so if you recommend anything they stock I will be able to view it quite easily.

Thanks very much for your help.

Max

I had a look in a few gardening books and I have to admit that my favourite was the use of a small basketweave path around the edge of the greenhouse and also as a central path in the greenhouse. Either side of this in the greenhouse I would have gravel on top of a weed suppressent membrane. I'm not sure what type of blocks would look best against a green coloured greenhouse with lawn around it.

I was thinking about using a concrete plinth/strip footing to put the greenhouse on. Do I need to put in a sub-base for either the greenhouse or any of the paving I lay? Also is there any similar need for a sub-base below the gravel. I will have a look at my Marshalls catelogue tonight to see the pavers you have mentioned. They certainly sound nice.

Thanks very much for your help.

Max

Would I not get away with a mowing edge around the greenhouse with a width the same length as a paver(200mm)?

Chapelgate brick pavers in Red Multi (page 53 in the catalogue);
Old Mill Brick in Sunset (page 100/101).

I would like to point between the pavers so that I get that "olde cottage look" to the finish. However, I noticed that the catalogue says the Old Mill Bricks are "...primarily intended as a walling material. When used as a decorative paving feature, it must be noted that the surface will abrade under foot traffic".  Do you think this will affect me to any great extent since only the path in the greenhouse will be affected by foot traffic and even this will be limited to the spring/summer months. Also what do they actually mean by "abrade"?  If you really think neither of these is a good choice please do let me know.

You mentioned earlier in this posting that I should bed the greenhouse path in a 8:1 (8 parts sand:1 part cement) lean mix concrete. Does this also apply to the mowing strip? Also what mix should I use for the pointing between the bricks/pavers? I would also like to include lime in the pointing mix if you think this will make the finish look nicer and be easier to maintain long term. If so what should the mix be?

I've also decided to go for the strip footing but without any walls. The greenhouse frame will be bolted to the footing. I've got someone coming round on Saturday morning to go through exactly what I want so that he can give me a price. I'll let you know the outcome.

Thanks for your help as always.

Max

You're right: my wife and I will only be pottering about in the greenhouse. I've got a fairly heavy duty mower to go over the mowing strip.

This is going to be one expensive greenhouse when it's finished. I'll get some pics. on a digital camera and send them to you.

I went to see the Old Mill bricks in real life and didn't think much of them. I have now decided to go for the Marshalls Chapelgate clay pavers instead. The builder came round on Saturday to discuss the base and he said the best solution was to put down strip footings and then lay up to 2 courses of bricks to make the base level with the surrounding ground. He will also put down a 400mm mowing strip and 800mm path in the greenhouse. Either side of the path he will lay down a membrane and put 10mm gravel. I have 3 questions for you:

1.  Since some of the brick course might be below ground level will he need to use engineering bricks? I have asked him to use reclaimed bricks but I'm not sure if it is possible to get reclaimed engineering bricks.

2.   Is it ok to lay the clay pavers on a weak mix? Or do they have to be laid on sand?

3.   When it comes to using building materials such as sand and cement does it matter if they are branded products from companies such as Blue Circle or are the "own brand" items from Wickes/B&Q just as good?

Thanks for you help again.

PS. The 2 quotes I've had so far are £980 and £3000. The second company has done a lot of other building work for me to a very high standard and think it will take about 6 days. I've not used the cheaper one but they were recommended by the place where I brought the greenhouse from and they say it will take 2 days.

Thanks as always for your advice.

Anyway I'm going to give the go-ahead to the cheaper guy to do the work.

The base was completed last week. It looks good although a couple of blocks were cut to size at the front of the greenhouse when they could have been done at the rear where they would have been less visible. Anyway once I get some pots on top they will hopefully be hidden anyway.

The blocks were laid on a wet mix as you suggested. However, there is a gap between the blocks which has not been filled. Can you please tell me whether dry kiln sand should be used or something else?

The greenhouse goes up on the 26th. I have got a couple of pics for you and will send them when the greenhouse is up.

By the way what started as a straight forward project went over-budget because the contractor had miscalculated the slope. He said that I need a 6 course retaining wall for the block paving as the slope was too steep. I agreed to it reluctantly since I just wanted to get the job done. Otherwise I would have had to get more quotes which I am sure would have not been less than even the revised price.

I'll waterproof a concrete skim below for run-off, but want to keep it light, and don't want to lay the slabs on sand/ cement.

Can anybody help, please?

I'm hoping I can get something from Purback or Portland (the latter isn't very dark, or grey, come to that!).

But, if I don't find anything, Indian it may well be!

Best wishes.

I am writing from the frozen land if Ohio US. I am trying to buy and export some paving moulds, Riven, Yorkstone Rotunda etc to the States. I previously used Harristone for my molds when I had my business in the UK, and he is still around but does not have any of the fencing moulds I am looking for. Do you know of anyone else who sells these type of moulds in the UK??

Thanks - Gunner