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Block Paving - Page 10
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 ruler
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Forum Question Interrupted preparation - Robert - Jul 5th 2003
Hi Tony,
I am having my front garden dug up on Tuesday but I am not to sure how far down I should dig. I have been advised to dig between 10-12". I have also been told that I will need around 6 tons of hardcore and Type 1. I will eventually finish off the job with block paving.

Also I only have enough money at the moment to dig up the front garden and lay the membrane, hardcore and Type 1. If I leave it like this will it be OK until I am in a position to finish off the job?

Thank you Robert

forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 6th 2003
For blocks paving, the depth of dig needs to be at least 200mm (8" in old money) below finished paving level. 250mm is ok, 300mm is probably over-doing it.

What's this  "6 tonnes of hardcore and Type 1"? It's Type 1 you need, not 'hardcore' which could be anything.

Anyway, once the sub-base is in and compacted, it can be left for as long as you like before laying the paving. It won't come to any harm as long as you don't let it get full of mud or soil.

 ruler
Forum Question Gradient of paths - Dwayne - Jul 5th 2003
I am re-laying my back path starting tomorrow. I did originally ask a professional to do it, but he turned out to be a cowboy, but that's another story.

I asked him to make the slope at a safe gradient as I had had a go at the path myself and had got to the point where I could not spend much more time on it. I now find that I have to.

When he did the work I felt that the slope was a little on the steep side, but couldn't understand why. After walking on it for a week now I have realised that the slope comes up sharply then levels out fairly quickly giving the impression that the slope has a bulge in it.

As the path joins another path which also runs downhill, it is difficult to gauge the safe angle so I have to look at it from the bedroom window to get a better idea before I start.

Is there a recommended gradient, maybe a British Standard for paths, if so could you tell me what it is?

I have asked the man to come out and rectify the problem and the extra problem of a now uneven path after just THREE days, but he won't come out and he won't honour any agreements we had. I am doing something about that, but the path is not safe enough for me to leave it, until he is made to fix it.

Thanks

forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 6th 2003
The maximum gradient that is allowed for disabled access is 1:12 - we use this a standard on all public footpaths because we assume (and rightly so) that disabled folks (including meself) have as much right to use any given footpath as an able-bodied sod. I'm not in a wheelchair (Thank God!) but even 1:12 is quite steep and presents a challenge to me. 1:20 is much more accommodating.  smile
Dwayne
Jul 8th 2003
Thanks for that Tony,
I haven't got round to lifting the path yet as we were advised not to, until we can obtain more advice on where we stand legally with the company who laid it.

Today when I came home from work I was inspecting the path so that I could write up a snag list/book to the company for them to fix in a reasonable time. My neighbour and I were walking up and down it looking for high and low spots and any extra wide gaps, which should not be there when I stood on the edging and sunk.

I looked more closely at the spot I had been standing on and found that the edging was loose. My neighbour picked a block up to reveal that the sand underneath was only sand and not even compacted. He was able to poke his finger in it with no trouble then picked up the sand like it was the topping to an Apple Crumble. We looked at the rest of the edging to discover that it all appeared to be the same. The cement haunching up to the top of the blocks was only icing, most of the haunching is in fact soil. I have a call with Trading Standards in the morning.

I wish that I could say who the company is, but can't until the company is proved to be a cowboy outfit.

Out of interest we worked the gradient out to be 1:2.82 and we did ask that the slope be of a gradient that could take a wheelchair! The path is only 9m x1m I would have thought that he would have coped with that easily as he allegedly does block paving almost daily (he advertises himself a block paving specialist in the yellow pages). The man who came to do the quote also said this was a small job.

Tony McCormack
Jul 8th 2003
Just because someone claims to be a 'Block Paving Specialist', it doesn't mean that they are actually any good at it! Anyone can claim to be a Block Paving Specialist, or a Tarmac Specialist or any other form of Home Improvement Specialist because there is no regulation of the industry in this country. You can set up a company this afternoon and claim to be a 'specialist' - who would stop you?

For years and years I've been banging on that the Home Improvement Industry needs some form of regulation, so that only accredited, genuinely-skilled, fully-insured, tax-registered individuals, partnerships and companies can trade in the industry. Obviously, my main concern is for the Paving industry, but the same could and should apply to double glazing, roofing, painting & decorating etc...

It is the fact that this is such a free and unregulated industry, with access to large handfuls of untraceable cash, which attracts the cowboys, the rogues and the thieves. There are some moves by individual Local Authorities to make life more difficult for the unscrupulous and unskilled, and they are welcome moves, but they are flea-bites on an elephant - what is really needed is certifiable regulation through a scheme of registration and assessment, and until that comes about, we will continue to hear horror stories such as yours.   sulk

Any luck with Trading Standards?

Dwayne
Jul 8th 2003
Spoke to Trading Standards at lunchtime. They wanted me to ask the cowboy back to fix it!!!

I told them what I thought of that idea and said that I had no confidence in them at all. Personally I would rather let Tom and Jerry have a go first. I explained that it had sunk and that the majority of the edging appeared to have no foundation at all, only when I told him that the haunching was just soil with an icing of cement, did he get my point. He then agreed with me completely. I am to write a letter to the company, Recorded Delivery, stating that I am unhappy (understatement) with the work and that as he had failed to put the edging in properly I no longer had any faith in the work carried out. I will be putting in the letter all the shortcomings of the path and tell him that we are in the process of getting quotes and will be recovering the cost from him.

I will let you know how I get on. I want to put the name, but know I can't at this stage, until a judge declares them cowboys! sulk

Tony McCormack
Jul 9th 2003
The normal procedure is that you are obliged to offer the contractor 'first refusal' at correcting their own work, except in those exceptional cases where an undeniable breach of trust or dangerous structure is involved. They are normally allowed what is described as a 'reasonable period' to undertake and satisfactorily complete the required remedial works, but no-one is sure just what constitutes a 'reasonable period'. To me and you and TS, it's probably 7 days, but I know of some contractors that have successfully dragged it out for months.

Make a full list of each and every defect, and, if possible, take photo's of the problems so that they are all fully documented. Give the contractor 7 days to respond with their plan of action, and make it clear that if they fail to respond, you will authorise remedial work to be carried out by a competent contractor at their expense. Send it recorded delivery, and from this point on, keep all discussions on paper. Don't fall into the telephone promise trap, where they keep fobbing you off with worthless verbal promises that never materialise but which they can deny as you have no verifiable record of the discussion. If they call, record the call (after informing them of you doing so, naturally!) or insist that they make all proposals in writing.

You could also ask TS to check on their VAT registration and their Employers and Public Liability Insurance, just to put the wind up them!   smile

Good luck!

Dwayne
Sep 27th 2003
We spoke to Trading Standards again having written to the company as well. We sent the company a letter with pictures of how bad the path was and copied it to Trading Standards.

One paving company came out and the first words he said was, if he had any idea what he was doing he would be unable to do it so badly on purpose.

Trading Standards told us to us write to the company and tell them that we are asking someone else to do the work and will be reclaiming the money. We wrote our letter and have had the path relaid.

The path is now even and the slope is safe, our garden is not long enough to make the 1:12 gradient, but at least you can walk down it and so can my mother now.  We have also achieved a gradient which a wheelchair can safely be wheeled up and down although the wheelchair user would have to be assisted.

We have told the first company that we are reclaiming the money from him and are in the process of filling in the court forms. Trading Standard and the Court say we have a good case.

Tony McCormack
Sep 29th 2003
Good luck with the case - keep us informed as to how you get on.   smile
 ruler
Forum Question Depth of edging - Lightning - Jul 7th 2003
Assuming I was excavating for a driveway and was going to make a compacted sub-base of 150mm, is it ok for the edging to sit on top of a portion of the sub-base or should it be the entrire depth (seems excessive to me)

Assuming it's allowed are there any significant 'gotchas' to be aware of in the set-out phase of the project? For instance, should I do a 75mm layer then set out the paving area and do a second layer etc.?

Any advice appreciated

forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 7th 2003
For a residential driveway, the depth of the edge block bedding isn't exceptionally critical, and you can get away with a 50mm bed of concrete, sitting on top of the sub-base, if you wish. I prefer at least 75mm, so you could spread, level and compact the sub-base, then just scratch off 25-30mm or so where the edge blocks are to go and place your bedding concrete there. The haunching is very important, however, and needs to be at least 100mm wide to give it any real strength.

I can't follow your second paragraph - where does this 75mm layer come in to it? Are you talking about laying the sub-base in 2 layers, each 75mm deep? If so, then you're doubling the work to no real benefit as a decent vib plate will easily consolidate 150mm thickness in one go (that's several passes, not one single pass), but, if you want to do 2 layers @ 75mm, then there's nowt wrong with it.

Lightning
Jul 9th 2003
Guess the second bit didnt make sense, I was trying to work out the best way to tackle things, but I think you mean excavate, then do the base, then scrape away the edging and get the formwork in place then do the haunch/edging pavers, then at this point remove the formwork and fill in the gap and recompact the base? Or is the small amount not a problem?

Note this drive is about 200 sqm so I dont particularly want to stuff it up, rather spend the extra time getting it right.

Thanks

Tony McCormack
Jul 9th 2003
The sequence of events should be summat like...

  1. - excavate and dispose
  2. - lay sub-base and compact
  3. - scratch out sub-base as required to accommodate edgings
  4. - lay edging and haunch
  5. - lay bedding, compact and screed
  6. - lay rest of paving and finish

Formwork isn't essential for this type of work, but you can use it if you want.

Does that make sense?

Lightning
Jul 30th 2003
Yep your reply makes sense but maybe I can better illustrate my problem with a picture. Basically part of the problem stems from the fact that the house is being constructed on a slab that has ended up about 300mm above the current level of the ground. So rather than excavating I guess I am talking about building up in a fair bit of the drive.

I am trying to work out whether I need to almost create a retaining wall of concrete (300-400mm depth) until I top up the surrounding area with excess soil to raise it to the desired level.

image

Or whether there is some other way to approach it, my thinking was if the concrete sides don't go down deep enough the sub-base will just spill out the sides.

Any ideas on how to tackle this appreciated as that much concreate would definitely dent the budget.

Tony McCormack
Jul 30th 2003
The usual way to build up levels is to use the sub-base layer (or a capping layer beneath it) and allow sufficient spread so that kerbs and the paving are adequately supported, something like....

sub-base

...and then, when you're ready, you can backfill over the spread of the sub-base and at the back of the kerb with your topsoil.

Lightning
Jul 31st 2003
Thanks very much for the speedy reply, and on a side note, I am always impressed by your ability to pull out the perfect picture for any situation, it really helps a lot when your trying to understand things.

Next question...

How do I convert tonnes for cubic metres, i.e. I want to order the sub-base material and they suppy in cubic metres. For instance if I used your calculator and came out with 60 tonnes how many cubic metres would that be?

Tony McCormack
Aug 30th 2003
Depends on the type of rock used as the sub-base material, but, for a sandstone or limestone, reckon on 2 tonnes per cubic metre.

There is a table of comparative densities at the bottom of the Aggregates page

Lightning
Sep 1st 2003
Hit another issue, around the perimeter of two sides of the house (a rear corner). The builders have installed some drainage (it appears on the plans as a 'silt pit' if that means anything). Basically they dug a trench put some agi pipe in it and there is an inspection chamber at both ends. My problem is it looks like they have filled it with rocks (larger than crushed rock but not too huge) which I assume is for drainage, if I want to pave over it do I need to run some sort of grate the length of it, or should I be looking to connect some sort of pit up to the agi pipe. I have read through the drainage pages but can't quite match up what I am seeing with what#s on the site (perhaps a fin drain is all I need with the pavers sloping away from the house?)
Tony McCormack
Sep 1st 2003
Agi pipe? Is this what we'd call a perforated pipe? And is it the pipe that's been backfilled with "rocks" or the ICs?

Assuming it is the pipe, then the best thing to do is to cover the trench with a geo-membrane, allowing at least a metre of spread to each side, if possible. Terram 1000 is probably the best 'all-purpose' geo-membrane to get hold of, and will be fine in a situation such as this.

I'm not sure as to the function of the 2 ICs - are they silt traps?

Lightning
Sep 2nd 2003
agi pipe = agricultural pipe = pipe with slots/holes in it.

Looks like I don't understand the differnce between a silt trap and an IC. I was assuming they are the same thing, the two things I am talking about are silt traps and after the traps it connects back to the storm water drainage, but I am assuming they are there to prvent the house getting flooded hence my concern over paving over it, although I think they are just going to backfill dirt over it anyway (over the rocks)

Tony McCormack
Sep 2nd 2003
I thought it must be Agi = Agricultural. We call them "Perforated' (just in case you have to deal with us Irish/Brits again!)

An IC is used on any type of drain for inspection and access. A silt trap is used only on Surface water or, more commonly, Land Drainage systems, to reduced the particulate load. Since the advent of permeable membranes, silt traps have become less essential, and are now most commonly encountered as 'settlement lagoons' on large highway schemes.

Lighning
Sep 4th 2003
With regards to edging, how much can reasonably be expected to be laid in one days effort (and as a guide how much difference would having more people helping affect things) The perimeter of the job is approx 70m. Is this too much to bite off for one day, assuming I get a readymix delivered and have 2-3 people helping would it set too quickly? Coupled with this if I did it in two sections (or more) do I need to do anything special to join them like starter bars etc, the shape is pretty much a horseshoe with the outer sides about 20m and the long boundary in the middle about 20m.

Thanks again for the help, the actual start date is fast approacing so I am starting to get more nervous.

Also I have managed to locate a pedestrian vibrating roller that is available at a reasonable price that is meant to compact up to 250mm, assuming I use this to do the sub base, should I revert to a wacker plate for the sand and to consolidate the blocks after jointing as I assume it may be a little rough to use for the blocks (they are 65mm thick clay pavers though so maybe they would handle it)

Thanks again

Tony McCormack
Sep 4th 2003
70m of edging kerb should be possible in a day. Before I was knackered, I would expect to lay 200-400 metres of edgings each day, with just one labourer helping me, so 70m would be done before 10am! What type of edging kerb are you using? Small unit kerbs take longer, of course, than longer units.

A Ped roller will be doing well if it compacts 250mm depth. A single drum roller is good for about 150mm of granular material, but you really need a double drum vibrating roller for anything more than that. And you'll definitely need a plate compactor for consolidating the blocks - you could use the roller for compacting the sand bed, but a plate is much better.

With clay pavers, it's a good idea to use a rubber sole on the base of the plate to prevent spalling. It's not a major problem, but, if you have to hire in, try and get one with the removable sole - take it off for consolidating aggregates, and fit it back when you come to hammering down the pavers.

Good luck!

 ruler
Forum Question Which Wacker? - Pete T - Jul 7th 2003
I have an existing sub base that needs to have added MOT 1 in places to achieve the correct level. This will need to be compacted. I will then use the plate to compact the bedding layer and blocks.

The local 'Speedy Hire' has three suitable plates for hire.

  1. Narrow 12" force 9kN
  2. Narrow 14" force 11 kN
  3. Medium powered (PVP 75/45 ??) = force 15 kN

Do you think the 9kn and 11kn force is sufficient or should I go for the heavier model.

Regards
Pete T

forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 8th 2003
The PVP is the best, by a long way. Although the smaller Vib Plates would do a reasonable job, they don't have the same 'wumph' as the PVP plate (which, incidentally, we used on most of our residential paving jobs)
 ruler
Forum Question Small garden path - Grib - Jul 8th 2003
My front garden is 4.5m square and I am planning to divide it into 4 triangular borders with 2 diagonal paths about 500mm wide, (the paths will only be used to tend the borders). I intend to use Tegula block paving with rope top edging. Having read the pages on block paving does this type of path require 200mm of hardcore and 50mm of sand as a sub-base and concrete haunching for the edging or, considering the level of usage, can I use something less substantial?
forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 9th 2003
75-100mm of sub-base material is adequate for your garden path. 200mm is OTT and I think you've proabably misread the web-page, as the usual recommendation for residential use is 100mm minimum.

Given that it is such a small project, with no vehicular traffic and very narrow paths, you could actually get away with laying everything on a 75-100mm bed of concrete, or the 10:1 bedding mix I espouse for patio paving.

 ruler
Forum Question Suitable Bedding - Waterside3 - Jul 9th 2003
Is it normal to use whin dust, which the contractor refers to as concrete sand, as a bedding?
forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 11th 2003
Whinstone dust as a bedding material is generally fine, as long as it's not too dusty. It's NOT suitable (in most circs) as a jointing material, though.
 ruler
Forum Question Best Splitter - ManagerXXX - Jul 9th 2003
I would like to invest in a splitter as I have a number of block paving projects that I'd like to undertake and would enjoy the convenience of having my own equipment. Can you recommend a reasonably priced model that'll cope with Brett Alpha 50mm thick blocks please?
forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 11th 2003
Errut, Birchwood, Probst - they're all very good. You should take into account how easy it would be for you to obtain 'spares' in your area. The blades need to be replaced every few months, depending on the amount of work you do, and so you don't want to be sending off by mail order to the other side of the world to get a set of replacement blades.

I like the Probst splitters, purely because of the quality, but I also have an Errut hydraulic model that we used for stone slabs and kerbs, and about 3 or 4 of the Birchwood models which are cheap and cheerful, as they say. Belle have started manufacturing a tiny little thing that is great for small jobs or repairs when you need to split a dozen or so blocks, but IMHO it would become tiring on larger projects.

Have a look on the Tools links page for contact details.

 ruler
Forum Question Accurate Spacing - ManagerXXX - Jul 9th 2003
I'm laying an edging course to accommodate a pattern of Brett Alpha paving. The pattern is such that if I lay the edging accurately spaced (almost to the mm) I'll be able to fit the pattern without cutting very many blocks. Obviously if the edgings wander by more than a few mm over the 1.1m width of the pathway the pattern will no longer be tight - any tips would be appreciated as this is my first project.

Also, the Brett laying instructions recommend spacing the blocks with a 2-5mm gap. Is this over and above the spacing lugs that have been incorporated into the blocks?

Many thanks in anticipation.

forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 11th 2003
If you establish a section of path that accommodates the edgings to both side, plus the body paving, that should give you a width to work to for the entire length which is more accurate than calculating the width mathematically. You will find that some sections are tighter to fit while others are looser, but that's the nature of block paving - overall, you should be able to maintain a constant width.

The recommendation for a 2-5mm joint is standard to all flexible pavement blocks, and most, if not all, manufacturrs now incorporate spacer lugs on the sides of their blocks, so the 2-5mm joint includes the spacer lugs and is not an additional spacing requirement.

 ruler
Forum Question Keyform/Linefix - Dan - Jul 10th 2003
I'd like to know if anybody has used Keyform or Linefix as an alternative to concrete for block paving edges and what they think about them.

I've asked a few building suppliers around the area I live in (NE London) if they sell Linefix or Keyform and they said they've never heard of them.

Can anybody recommend any suppliers?

Thanks

forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 11th 2003
Personally, I don't like these products as I believe they are more trouble than they're worth, limit the curves and sweeps that I like to build into my designs, and are slow and expensive compared to concrete bed and haunch.

However, in N.America, they are unbelievably popular, but I think that is because a concrete bed and haunched edging woulkd give problems in areas of frost heave, and so they rely on these types of 'solutions' that can move with the ground as it rises and falls, without cracking the haunching and requiring annual repairs.

If you contact Marshalls (distributors of Keyform which they bring in from overseas) or Hauraton, they will be able to tell you who, in your area, stocks their kit.

 ruler
Forum Question Delayed Construction - Andy Ash - Jul 10th 2003
I've started laying a new drive and have nearly completed the digging out. Because of work and family comitments it's just an hour or so some evenings and perhaps 1 full day at weekends, weather permitting. My question is: I'll be ready for the sub-base soon and plan to take a day off for the delivery and to carry out the compaction, does it matter how long I leave it before moving on to the next stage?
forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 11th 2003
No - once the sub-base is in, you can leave it as long as you like before laying the paving, but try to keep the compacted sub-base reasonably clean and free of mud etc.
 ruler
Forum Question Sub-base and Screeding - Surfer - Jul 13th 2003
1) Can I use hardcore (broken paving slabs, broken concrete including large lumps) blinded with sand and compacted in place of DTp1?

2) When constructing the sand base, having spread the sand ready for compacting, where do you walk when doing the compacting on the prepared sand base?

forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 14th 2003
1 - NO! Read the sub-bases page on the website - the sub-base is the most critical layer for longevity of an elemental paving such as block paving. Skimping on the sub-base will cost you dearly in the long run, as you will get differential settlement. You know all those drives you've seen with block paving that's sunken and rutted - guess what they used as a sub-base?

2 - You can walk on the sand when it's first compacted, but, once it's screeded off to level and ready for laying the blocks, you should NOT walk on it at all.

 ruler
Forum Question Re-using a sub-base - Hillheader - Jul 21st 2003
I have an old driveway getting replaced by myself. I have excavated the top surface and exposed the sub-base. I haven't removed any more sub-base than I could, but the top of the sub base is uneven and full of rocks (up to 15 cm). Do I compact this first having levelled as I best I can before laying sand. How level do I need to be at this stage (i.e. before the sand?).
forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 22nd 2003
The sub-base needs to be fairly accurate - the usual standard required is +20mm or -15mm. However, if there are 'big rocks' on the surface of the sub-base and they are protruding, they really should be removed and the surface of the sub-base regulated to give an even surface with no big lumps in it.

If you leave these lumps in place, their profile can be reflected through to the surface of the eventual paving, and so, in a couple of years, you might find that some individual pavers were more prominent than their neighbours, or were proud and rocking because they were placed directly over these 'lumps' which have provided more resistance to consolidation than other parts of the paving.

As I say over and over again: the sub-base is the strength and integrity of a block paved driveway and skimping on it is a false economy.

 ruler
Forum Question Creating a level - MarkV - Jul 21st 2003
Question, for a plot roughly 10 mtr wide (across the front of the house) and 7 mtr deep (from house to road). Looking at the plot from the road, it is roughly rectangular. Taking the corner at the left side of the house there is a slope down hill to the kerb (at least the rain will all go 'south' away from the house), the slope from the right side of the house to the kerb at the front is steeper, and there is also a slope from the left side of the plot down the kerb line to the right side....

I don't have the detail but assume the fall from top left to the kerb over the 7mts is 0.5mtr, and the fall from the right side of the house to the kerb is 1mtr, and the fall from the kerb at the left side of the plot downhill to the right side of the plot is 0.75mtr.

How do I establish a level across the 70Sq Mtrs to establish a good base with consistent depth and 'level' sand bed that will result in a smooth, clean and tidy block driveway. Using Marshalls Driveline 50mm block. 1 course of dark grey soldiers, around the edge, with a single course of buff stretcher bond inside and the main drive being done with brindle set out in 45° herringbone. I may even have a go at the three interlocking diamonds (as shown on the Pavingexpert Web) to give it something over and above all the other Charcoal/Buff and Brindle driveways!!!

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Cheers Mark V

forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 22nd 2003
When it comes to the paving, the first thing to do is lay the edge courses to the perimeter then, when you're preparing the screeded bed, split it into 3 'bays' each roughly 3.3 metres wide by using Guide Rails (Trammel Bars) within the screed as described on the Screeding page, with the level of each guide rail set using the taut string line stretched from side to side to establish intermediate levels. On this particular project, I'd split the trammel bars into two lengths, so that, in effect, you've divided the pavement bed into 6 bays - 3 bays wide and 2 bays deep.

divided drive

Once screeded, you'll need to smooth out the highspots that will be formed where you placed the trammel bars. This is covered in the Section on the Screeding page that deals with "Cambers and Dishes". The final screeded bed should be fairly accurate and very 'sweet' with no obvious bumps or dips at all. Take your time with it - keep going over it, "tittivating", as we say, until you're 100% happy with the profile. Then, and only then, should you start to lay the blocks of the pavement body.

Assuming you've thoroughly compacted the sub-base and the bedding is evenly compacted to a regular thickness, the final profile of that bed will, to within a few millimetres at most, replicate the finished profile of the pavement. It's much easier to adjust the sand bedding than to lift blocks, re-screed and then re-lay, so time spent ensuring the bed is spot-on is time well spent. It's much better to spend an extra half-hour checking the bed than to rush in with the blocks only to find you've a ridge running right down the centre!

Flexibly-laid block paving is a very forgiving medium in which to work, so, even if you do make a boob, it's not all that difficult to lift and re-lay - far easier than it would be with a non-elemental paving such as concrete or bitmac, so don't fret too much. Take your time, and ask for help if you get stuck!   smile

 ruler
Forum Question Diamond blades - BillieJNR - Jul 25th 2003
I've been using a 9" diamond blade to dry-cut 50mm blocks. It was only a ten quid cheapie, but it's been doing a good job. Quite suddenly, it started to have poor cutting performance along with lots of sparks. There's plenty of diamond left, so I'm not sure why it would stop cutting properly?????
forum answer Tony McCormack
Jul 28th 2003
Poor performance? Lots of sparks? You're out of blade, Billie. You might think there are lots of diamonds left, but the diamond coating on those cheaper blades is pretty thin and soon wears away. Time for a new blade. methinks.
BillieJNR
Jul 28th 2003
Oh well, I've had my ten quids worth; cut over a hundred blocks. I did hear from somebody who knows very little more than me, that these things could be dressed/sharpened by cutting some sandstone or tarmac? Thanks for the info.
Tony McCormack
Jul 28th 2003
You're wrong - they know even less than you! wink

You cannot re-sharpen a spent blade by forcing it through bitmac or sandstone. If you could, every contractor in the trade would be at it!

 ruler
Forum Question Choice of sealant - sdelasal - Aug 2nd 2003
I want to seal my newly block-paved drive as I mess about with cars, which often leak. I also want to minimize weed maintenance and there is also a need to prevent 'sand runoff' from rain.

I need 50 litres and can get Resiblock at about 290 pounds or the guy who did the paving will do the job for £300 inc. 5year guarantee. Only problem is when I ask him what he's using he says it's a 'trade-only' material.

Any opinions - should I turst this mysterious solution? If I go Resiblock then it's about same price but with a day of my time too. I'm not entirely clear what a guarantee would cover?

Steve

forum answer Tony McCormack
Aug 4th 2003
I'd hazard a guess that this 'trade-only' jollop is an acrylic sealant, and, if your man is not prepared to name names, I'd be wary, or you could end up with a low-grade, cheap gunge that you can get from a DIY shed for just a few quid.

The Resiblock products are very, very good: in fact, they are probably too good for domestic paving, if such a thing is possible. They are one of the few companies that back up their claims with independent, scientific data, rather than anecdotal opinion. Consequently, there's no worries with the Resiblock stuff, as they have built their worldwide reputation by concentrating on specialist sealants for paving, whereas many other products are knocked out as cheaply as possible by companies with no technical data to back up their claims and no on-going research committed to developing even better products.

50 litres of sealant, whether it's Resiblock or any other, can be applied in less than half a day, including time to prep the area and standing guard to keep the cat off it while it cures. I wouldn't hesitate to use the Resiblock and half a day of my own time, rather than splash out 300 quid on some unknown mystery product. However, if your man is willing to tell you just what it is he plans to use, I'd re-assess the situation.

Krismac
Aug 13th 2003
I've been using sealants for block paving and slabs for five years now and have found that Techcon is by far the best for all round performance.

Resiblock Superior works well stabilising the jointing sand but it seems to fade very quickly(under one year) and drives I've sealed with Techcon over two years ago are still looking fabulous.

Also Techcon is over half the price at £55 per tin plus delivery.Their number is 01384 566533.

Make sure your drive is dry inc. sand in joints before applying and don't apply on a hot afternoon as it might streak..Good luck..

The MacCormack Refurbishment Company

sdelasal
Aug 13th 2003
Is this Techcon stuff an acrylic or a urethane based material? I can't find any references to it on the web - are there any on-line reports or descriptions available that you are aware of?

Steve

Tony McCormack
Aug 14th 2003
I had a chat with the MD of Techcon a couple of months ago. They've just moved to a new factory in Cradley Heath and have some interesting products in the pipeline that I promised to go an take a peek at, but just haven't had the chance, yet.

Anyway, their SupaSeal sealant is an acrylic, which is why it is cheaper than Resiblock. I've still not seen any tech literature, other than the standard promotional stuff, and they don't have a website......yet!

If you give them a call and tell them you were speaking with me, they'll send you all the info they have and I'll have another go at getting technical info from them as soon as I get the time.

 ruler
Forum Question Thickness variance - Socalscott - Aug 5th 2003
I'd like to know how to deal with this scenario. I just did a small job that had variances up to 7mm. I removed here and added there.

The patio project took me as long as a good sized driveway! I lost me arse, to say the least.

Please don't recommend that I could have just vibed the tall ones down because I've never seen any unit move more than 3mm. The high units always keep their relation and get beat-up pretty badly.

Is the answer simply return the product?

forum answer Tony McCormack
Aug 6th 2003
I'm not sure what the tolerance limits are for blocks in your country, Scott. I do have a copy of the ASTM (??) standards, somewhere, but it's not the sort of thing I commit to memory. The British Standard covering concrete block pavers (BS6717), which we use in the UK and RoI, allows a thickness tolerance of +/- 3mm, so, in theory, two adjacent blocks could differ by 6mm, although this would be the exception, rather than the rule.

I hear what you say about relying on consolidation to level out the difference, but it does work for me. Even using the pre-compacted screed method of laying, we expect 5-9mm of consolidation, but that's because we prepare the screed in such a manner that there is such a relatively high degree of 'give'. The grit sand we prefer to use as a bedding material allows us to do this, but I also know from experience that when a grit or a granite dust is used as the bedding material, there is considerably less 'give', perhaps 3-5mm, and so variation in block thickness becomes more of an issue.

Obviously, returning the blocks to the manufacturer is not realistic at this stage, but, if I came across such blocks at some future date, I'd certainly call out the Area Rep and listen to their attempt to lie their way out of trouble, because, if the manufacturers don't get this critical feedback, they will continue producing sub-standard blocks.

From a laying point of view, if you are forced to work with such irregular blocks again, maybe switching to a partial pre-compaction screed would give better results?

Socalscott
Aug 6th 2003
How does one partially pre-compact sand and how would that allow thicker units to penetrate further than others? I'd think this would make it worse.

I use washed plaster sand which has angular sand and small pebbles and I've used the granite type as well. What product are you using that could minimize this case?

Oh...btw, from the get-go I vibe with sand. I've had fine results, but I'm thinking this may work against me in this case.

Tony McCormack
Aug 7th 2003
Partial pre-compaction (an approved method according to BS7533/3) is explained on the screeding page. Because the top layer of sand is, in effect, loose and uncompacted, the blocks compact down further than is the case with a pre-compacted screed. Although it is 'approved', it's not a methodology I like.

In the UK, the bedding sand required for block paving is a Class C or M sand, and then there are 4 sub-zones of those classes, stipulating allowable clay content and further defining the grading envelope. All of this is explained on the Aggregates. There is a wide range of sands available to us in the UK, ranging from genuine marine or fluvial sands, to quarry waste by-products. Contractors tend to have their own particular favourite sand that they find gives them the best results for their regular products. This comes about because they 'learn' from experience just what degree of compaction they can expect from a standard screeded layer rather than any real difference in performance of the sand.

As I mentioned, I'm not very familiar with US standards, but have you tried ICPI? They give out great advice to US-based block paving contractors and could probably tell you what they would recommend for dealing with blocks having such a wide difference in thickness. They also sell a number of guidebooks and leaflets for a few dollars each, and they make good reading. They don't have an online advice service, like this one, but they do have a freephone number, as far as I recall.

 ruler
Forum Question Compact blocks before or after brushing in kiln dried sand - Hillheader - Aug 14th 2003
Should I compact the blocks before scattering with kiln dried sand? Or should I brush the sand in first?

I tried a trial section (to see how much they would compact down with the vibrating plate) and found many of the blocks just wobbled.

Somewhat related to this, at the edge of the driveway up against the house I have blocks bedded in mortar. I put a slope to the mortar (about 45deg). The thickness of the bedding sand for the adjacent blocks is therefore variable and is zero actually at the edge. Is this correct and will it make the edge blocks harder to compact?

forum answer Tony McCormack
Aug 14th 2003
We have always found that we get best results if the jointing sand is brushed in first. I know some manufacturers state in their literature that blocks should be compacted first then sanded, but what the hell do they know?   wink

If the blocks are compacted 'dry', some joints tighten up and some widen, whereas, if sand is scattered over the surface, it seems to even out joint width, minimise skewing of individual blocks, keep cut blocks in place and, most importantly, ensures the sand is properly rattled into the joints so that those nasty empty joints that appear after a couple of weeks or so after completion are fewer, meaning less maintenance at the 6-week check-up.

I'm not sure why you've laid the edge blocks like that - I'd have laid them on a full concrete bed and hammered them down to level there and then, so that the body blocks can be laid on a full sand bed. As I've never experienced blocks laid in that manner, I can't be sure how they'll respond to final compaction, but my guess is that they'll 'dip' at the sand end while staying more-or-less put at the mortar end.

I'd be interested to hear what happens!

Hillheader
Aug 15th 2003
Thanks,

I was showing my ignorance and treated the blocks bedded in mortar at the side as needing haunching. I now realise that they are there mainly to provide a level against which to screed.

Thanks
Jonathan

 ruler
Forum Question Holes in my blocks - Tony L - Aug 6th 2003
I have had the front of my drive Block Paved exactly a year ago. The problem I have is small and large holes have started to appear on about half of the paving and look like they are getting worse. Should this be natural in such a short space of time? I have contacted the builder who has done the work and he seems to blame the brick manufacturers and doesn't seem bothered at all. I have spent good money on something which I hoped would last me for years but is turning into a nightmare. Would Resiblock 22 at least slow this process down or would they need replacing. Photo's available. http://emspace.homestead.com/pavingpix.html

Many Thanks

forum answer Tony McCormack
Aug 7th 2003
These look like Marshalls blocks, and the 'holes' are typical, I'm afraid, not just for Marshalls, but for most of the large manufacturers. They happen because of incomplete compaction of the semi-dry concrete mix when it's placed in the moulds. They don't appear at first because there is often a thin 'film' of concrete masking them, but, as the pavement is trafficked and weathered, the 'film' disappears and the holes become evident.

I've noticed that this phenomenon is more prevalent with multi-coloured blocks, that is, blocks containing two or more differently coloured concretes. I did wonder whether the hydraulic press that is used to compact the different concretes into the mould during manufacturing was set to a lower level of compaction or perhaps not vibrated, but none of the UK manufacturers are all that keen on revealing their exact manufacturing process, so my suspicion remains. Most of the block manufacturing plants I've toured, both in the UK and in Europe, all have vibrating presses, but the degree of vibration and compaction is not revealed.

However, the point is that these 'holes' are commonplace with that type of concrete block paver and the manufacturer will probably not entertain any claim for sub-standard materials. Still, your contractor really should be prepared to ask the manufacturer to send out a Rep so that your questions can be answered. It's not as though it costs the contractor anything, and it would come across as good PR. If there were a substantial number of the holey blocks on your pavement, 30% or more at a guess, then the manufacturer might be sympathetic, but would be quite right in pointing out that the contractor shouldn't have laid the blocks if there were so many sub-standard units.

If you want to use sealant, wait until you know whether you are going to get a vist from a Rep. If you seal the blocks before they've been inspected, you could invalidate any claim.

Applying a sealant will not eliminate these holes: they'll still be there after the sealant is applied, but the sealant will help to keep the pavement cleaner.

I would go back to the contractor, ask them to arrange for a Rep to visit the site and take a look at the blocks, and then take it from there, but I don't want to build up your expectations. I really don't think you're going to get the blocks replaced, unless, as I say, there are hell of a lot of them on the pavement, and the Rep is in a particularly generous mood.

Tony L
Aug 7th 2003
Hi Tony

Thank you for your honest answer. My builder also stated the best thing to do would be to get a rep down and inspect. As for the amount block paved try 96x96 m², which is a lot, which is why it is frustrating me so much. Do you think the holes will get any worse and approximately how long should the block paving last looking at the sort of condition it is in using the Resiblock 22?

Tony McCormack
Aug 7th 2003
96 x 96m!!! 9216m²!!! That's a lot of paving, Tony!

As the blocks are now 12 months old, I don't think they'll get much worse. Obviously, some blocks will continue to develop more 'holes', but I would imagine that the vast majority of the holey blocks have made their presence known by now. Still, I'd definitely get the Rep down, though - 9000m² is not your average domestic driveway!

Even with the 'holes', your block paving should give you at least 20 years of service, possibly even longer. Some of the earliest block paving we did is now 22 years old and is still serviceable as a pavement, even if it is a bit grotty and could do with a damned good cleaning. I'm not sure that applying a sealant would dramatically extend the lifespan of your paving, although there is some research from studies on heavy duty block pavements (such as airports and freight yards) which shows that using a quality sealant does indeed reduce maintenance requirements and, so, extends the working life of such pavements.

Tony L
Aug 7th 2003
Thanks Tony

One final thing if the worse came to the worst, and I paid to have them replaced with the same type of brick and colour and then sealed them straight away, would it make a difference?

Tony McCormack
Aug 7th 2003
I really wouldn't bother replacing them, Tony. In all honesty, we see 'faults' on our own driveways and patios that friends and neighbours would never see unless they were pointed out to them, but that's because we spend more time looking at said pavements. I know the photies you've posted aren't the most attractive, but, looking at the bigger picture, I'll bet very few of your visitors have even noticed! They see the whole pavement rather than individual blocks.

Replacing the lot is no guarantee that the new batch of blocks will all be what we call 'tight', ie, no holey bits on the surface, and sealing any concrete block pavement immediately after laying is never a good idea. The blocks need time to 'settle in', for the jointing sand to be topped up (usually 4-8 weeks after laying) for any efflorescence to work its way out, for any settlement problems to come to light - I always recommend leaving a new driveway/patio at least 3 months before applying a sealant, but I know some folk are quite happy to seal them immediately.

 ruler
Forum Question First timer's questions - Johnboi - Aug 18th 2003
Hi to everybody,

I have finally succombed to the wife's nagging and started doing that patio. I have around 18sq metres to pave and she has chosen Marshalls clay chapelgate pavers. I have removed the original concrete and dug down through the clay probably a bit too deep. I am using a base of crusher and then a base of sharp sand both around 50mm thick. In some places I have been a bit overzealous and am around 200mm down below my surface layer instead of my intended 160. Can I just chuck the clay soil back in and hope it compacts down with a wacker or would it be best to just use more crusher?

I would rather not as I have calculated I need around 1.8 tons and have ordered 2 so not too much to spare.

I have a bad back for all my efforts having shifted over 9 tonnes of concrete and soil over the last 3 days so I am taking a week off to recover and hope to start again over the weekend!! My question is can I work on the patio while it is raining i.e laying crusher and/or sand or will this affect the finished patio?

Also I am using clay pavers so do I need to not only use a rubber mat on the wacker but also spread a generous layer of kiln dried sand on top too?

My main worries besides whether I will be physically able to finish what I have started is obviously the levels, it is 2.4 metres from the house so the slope should be 60 mm and should be laid right up to the wall of the house?

Can anyone confirm I am going in the right direction thanks

forum answer Tony McCormack
Aug 30th 2003
Don't make up levels with excavated clay soil - add more 'crusher run', even if it means buying in an extra tonne or so. Clay will not compact as well as granular sub-base material, so, if you 'skimp' by chucking in the clay, the odds are that the paving will start to sink in a few months, and then your missus will be on at you again!   wink

You can work in the rain, if you're mad keen. It will do you more harm than it will the blocks, but, as long as it's not absolutely chucking down, both you and the paving should pull through.   smile

A rubber sole on the base of the plate compactor is handy, but not absolutely essential. You can use an old blanket or even a donkey jacket wrapped around the plate, if you find that the vibration is spalling the pavers. However, with a generous sand cushion on top of the blocks (6mm or so) the incidence of spalling is much reduced.

60mm fall over 2.4metres is more than ample, you'll be gflad to hear, and you can pave right up to the house brickwork.

 ruler
Forum Question Where to start the fall? - Johnboi - Aug 19th 2003
In the construction of my patio which is 2.4 metres wide it is recommended to have a fall of 1 in 40 away from the house which works out at 60 mm. This does seem quite steep. I obviously want to place a table etc on it without it wobbling. Could I get away with a fall of 30mm?

My main question is where do I start the slope, is it implemented in the ground on excavation, in the sub base (crusher layer) or is it adequate to apply the slope to just the compacted sand layer and screeded area?

thanks for your help

forum answer Canny Cumbrian
Aug 19th 2003
You are best advised to create the fall within your sub base level and then make it more accurate with the screed layer.

You will probably get away with around 50mm fall, but don't go any less. It may sound a lot, but when it is laid it is hardly noticeable. What would you rather have - No standing water or a perfectly level table ?

Nigel

Johnboi
Aug 20th 2003
Thanks Nigel for your reply.

OK 50mm fall it is. I can't find a link to how I go about creating a fall. As you may have guessed I am a DIYer and patio virgin so this was how I was going to proceed....
Dig down to about 180mm then in order to level the ground lay sub-base to a level of around 20mm filling in all the gaps. Then lay a furthur 30mm of sub-base but having a fall from the house of 50 mm if that makes sense. So I would start with around an 80 mm depth of sub base at the house tapering down to 30 at the garden edge. I thought of using 2.4m lengths of wood which are 30mm high. At the house side I would place a 50 mm piece of wood under this piece so the angle of the wood now reflects the fall I want then I would fill in between the pieces and skim off the top giving me the fall?

I have got an idea that there must be an easier way and I am making it more complicated than needs be.

Any help would be appreciated.

Canny Cumbrian
Aug 20th 2003
This is how to do it.

Find your finished level height on your house wall - 150mm below dpc level, mark it with a pencil. Use a straight edge (a piece of timber around 75-100mm by 25-50mm), 2.4m long and level it off your mark on the wall to the end of your patio. Get a wooden peg and hit it into the ground so the top of the peg is 50mm below the bottom of the straight edge when level. These 2 points - the mark on your wall and the peg height are your finished height levels.

Dig out your ground to approx 200mm below your finished heights, thus creating a fall in your ground. Then fill in with an even layer of sub-base 100mm. Keep measuring down from your straight edge. Compact your sub base.

Level out your scredding layer evenly and then lay your blocks as per the recommended way - look in the main pages for Tony's do's and don'ts.

If you do it this way, all your levels are even.

Good luck

If anyone else can explain better than me, have a go.!!

Nigel

Johnboi
Aug 20th 2003
Top man Nigel, that is so much easier than the way I was going to mess about with. You have been a great help. I will let you know how I go on.

Bad news today though - Jewson's have told me I have to wait 3-4 weeks for the clay pavers, so I have a dug out area covered in plastic for the next 3 weeks. At least I can tweek my levels and get it right I suppose. If I can lay the sub base and sand it will only be a matter of laying the bricks when they finally arrive. I will be obviously protecting the area I am working on, would it be best to lay the sub base and sand now, and just wait, or just lay the sub base then do the sand when the bricks arrive? I read elsewhere on the forum, both don't get your sand wet and don't worry if you do as it should drain off in an hour or two.

Once again thanks for your time and help

Canny Cumbrian
Aug 21st 2003
Get your sub base in now and compact it.

Do not put any plastic under the sub base. If you are gonna use anything make sure it's a Geo-textile type membrane.

The sub-base will be ok for weeks/ months after it has been compacted.

Do not put in the sand layer until you are ready to lay the blocks. Make sure you use a grit type of sand - NOT building sand or the like.

Nigel

ruler

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