Page 1 of 3
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:50 pm
by Tony McC
As some of you know, I'm busy writing the "specification" for the new apprenticeship in Modular Paving being sponsored by Construction Skills. This is the long-awaited return of a proper apprentice scheme for our trade, and while it falls well short of what some of us went through years ago, it's the best we're going to get in these attention-span-challenged times.
Basically, I'm writing "stepped lists" of what we think apprentices should be taught. Heading, sub-heading, sub-sub-heading....etc.
If there is anyone out there who thinks they might have summat to contribute, I'm looking for experienced tradesmen, anyone who has done the NVQs/SNVQs, and those that actually did one of the old streetmasonry apprenticeships. I want the trade to review what's written and just make sure I've not missed owt obvious - it's easy to become word-blind when writing these things and then suddenly realise that you've not mentioned plate compactors (don't fret: I have!)
I don't need anyone to 'prove' their merit or their credentials, it's all done on trust, so if you want to flick through a draft and give a bit of feedback, please contact me at the usual address.
To date, I have modules completed on...
Screeding
Block Paving
Next up is flag laying (probably) followed by sub-layers, so even if blocks or screeding are not your area of expertise, it's quite likely that one of the future modules will cover what it is that interests you. No-one has to comment on everything - it's completely ad-hoc. I'm just grateful for the feedback!
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:22 pm
by rab1
This is of no help to Tony or anyone else, just want to get it off my chest: modern apprenticeship - our cat could pass it. bring back City & Guilds - skills tests to prove you can actually do the job and read a drawing probably. the number of apprentices who think their qualified after 3yrs to tell mates who have been in the game 20yrs how to do their job really pisses me off, when truth be told the mate has forgotten more than they will probably ever know as the kids in general dont give a toss. reaplyed for my cscs card, had to explain what my qualifications were. city and guilds the girl on the other end of the phone had know idea. is this just me, 4 years on the job training with collage and a test at the end of each year (real tests where you either pass or fail). this is what makes a qualified apprentice, i`m willing to bet thats how we all became tradesmen in our own fields.
sorry about this, rant over.
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:54 pm
by GB_Groundworks
i don't mind giving it a read through tony, haven't got any of the qualities you asked for but i'm young(ish) and kinda the lads you'll be aiming at.
plus i've done alot of learning haha and interested in it, and not done much block paving so might be fresh set of eyes.
gi
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:57 pm
by seanandruby
There is a young foreskin, sorry foreman on my job who must be in is early 30s. He thinks he has to relay everything to me all day long. In one ear out t'other. Last week we had some tricky intricate stuff to do, where was he....pretending to be doing summat else whilst giving me the corner of his eye to see how it was done. So i went around the houses to make it loook really difficult and baffle the lad even more :;): And he calls me fella.' I f****** hate name tags. Anyway let him think he's in charge so he can take the bollickings :laugh:
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:24 pm
by Tony McC
As I said, the Modern Apprenticeship is not everything it could or should be, but it's better than nowt, which is what we have at the moment.
I have an enormous problem with the 2 year timescale: there's no way on this or any other planet that you can take a 17 yr old (minimum age for apprentices) and turn him or her into a tradesman by their 19th birthday. They may have the knowledge, but they will still lack the experience and the maturity - that's summat you can't teach.
However, the powers-that-be dictate what is and what isn't desirable in all modern apprenticeships. I fail to see why it takes three years to get a degree in "meejah studies" but only two years, with 30 days college over those two years, to become a so-called tradesman, but that's what we have, and, as I have to keep reminding myself, it's better than nowt!
The one piece of good news is there will be a practical assessment of the key modules, so no more of that 'portfolio' nonsense, whereby they show you photies of work their boss or their mate did, and claim it as their own.
Baby steps - that's what we have to use! 
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:32 pm
by lutonlagerlout
I'll have a read through in my spare time tony, IMO it should be possible to fail apprenticeships
in bricklaying,
too much emphasis is placed on HSE (which is important,but not worth nearly a year of college time) and doing chimneys and arches in 25 years I have built 2 chimneys and maybe 20 arches
what young lads need to learn is what they will be doing on a day in day out basis;
preparing subbase,
setting out,
preparing bedding material,
and laying decent size areas,
and using the cut off saw,
pointing,
keeping the site clean,
if theres too much written stuff and trying to work out angles and radii their attention will wan quickly,
when i was young i wanted to get stuck in, because i was chasing the bright lights and big money
its better they are great at the basics as a lot of the other stuff comes with exprience
LLL
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:58 am
by henpecked
You dont even need to know corners as all the brickies now (or have for some time) use profiles.
Ive had to spent nearly 2k getting certificated to do my own job. When I didnt need a license ( 2000 or so) the rates were high and work a plenty. Since then Ive had an RTITB, CITB and CPCS , every time th cost has risen and work/rates have dropped.
Since the CPCS has came in, theres a sudden rush of dangerous drivers. Also with the influx, the rates have dropped expedentially.
Sorry for hijacking your thread ,Tony, but its a raw nerve.
Hp
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:30 pm
by lutonlagerlout
profiles are ok to an extent, but they have to be looked after and set up correctly,seen it too many times where lads rush setting them up with dire consequences
i dropped my level to day and the middle bubble went 25mm out of true,thats £30 levels for ya 
what do you do then henpecked?
LLL
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:47 pm
by henpecked
lutonlagerlout wrote:what do you do then henpecked?
LLL
Im sure Ive put it up before, Im a telehandler. Used to drive diggers but found more work doing telescopic work in the doomed housing sector. I must have hit it on an up stroke as Im on the same money now as back in 2002
Im now the proud owner of a NVQ level 2 in plant and equipment which isn't worth the plastic its printed on. You get on site, and as most of the prior drivers are new, your treated like you've just put your boots on for the first time.
The dole office seem to dish the tickets out like candy and most of the drivers (ex-dole) have never been on a site before, so less work and lower rates are the order of the day
Hp
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:23 pm
by rab1
went onto one of our sites today, mate with 30 years experence (paid fitters money and has ran small jobs before etc, but has no formal qualifications). 22 year old, knows it all and belive me he thinks he dose was trying to boss him about, mate basically to him to go feck himself, laddie came up to me and tryed to make a formal complaint - people can get sacked for these if there upheld. basically had to tell him that: you or the mate, your going to lose kid. threatend to report me, bring it on you little wank was my response. when i was his age you did as you were told and learn.
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:00 pm
by lutonlagerlout
funny you should mention that hen,2 mates of mine "resting labourer and brickie" just got their telehandling tickets via a 2 day course off the dole
i did mine 20 years ago on a fairview site ,but when i jacked they wouldnt give me the ticket
TBH it was apain in the backside,everyone on the job asking for stuff to be lifted and at least 1 puncture a day (it was the old lee enfield armaments site)
i got so many bungs off different trades it spoilt me for life 
cheers LLL
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:06 pm
by henpecked
It was good around 2004-2007 Did Olaf Melburgs house in Sutton, Dejemba dejemba, Steve Davis (irish international), Thomas Gardsoe West Brom. Had all the craic you could take on those jobs, I couldnt believe they paid you to do it, now , Im afraid, its a mugs game. Too many blokes doing it. Too many jumped up site agents and all, not time served , never been on a scaffold, but theyre telling you how they want the job to be done (and they usually looking to you to do it fo them)
Im off to get a proper job.......Mc Donald maybe?
Hp
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:31 pm
by rab1
mates just left the army, he got 360 upto 40t, jcb & manato tickets as a thank you after 8 yrs, was offered a 6 month brickies course instead of the machine tickets but guessed it took longer than that to become competent at laying bricks.
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:59 pm
by Tony McC
In the Setting-Out module, I've had to define "level". So far, I have five different definitions commonly used. Can you understand the following instruction issued to the apprentice?
"Get the level and set-up a level for that pathway alongside the level making sure it’s level and then level-out the sub-base"
I reckon, if they can get that, they've passed!
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:37 pm
by Suggers
I swear this is true - as we were battening out the roof here at home, young lad slipped & slid down half way, snapping the battens with his hobnails as he went - the boss, standing next to me in old broad Bucks accent shouted -
" flip me, the fucker's only gone and cussed the flipping fucker...."
We all understood perfectly.
:laugh: