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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:35 pm
by Ted
I watched this program tonight. Did anyone else?
There was a guy who was asked to lay a 10'x10' patio on a lawn outside a garden shed/summerhouse.
He said his crew would dig out the area, lay Type 1 and set the patio on a dry bed of sand and cement for £800. I thought this sounded a reasonable price.
However, the "Rogue Traders" crew said the patio should only cost £200-£300. I really think this is a bit cheap - how does these professionals who commentate for "Rogue Traders" make any money?
Anyway, the man being investigated did lay a crap patio it must be said. He knocked up the dry mix in the dug out area which is not a good idea IMO and his patio seemed uneven. He was also very keen to drive the client to the cash machine, even though they had previously discussed payment terms. He also cut the slabs badly and his layout design was crap.
But when the "Rogue Traders" crew came out to bust him they said that "for this sort of application one should not use the dry bed method". I would like to know what method they would use, which they failed to explain.
They also said the patio should have cost no more than £400 at this later stage in the program.
With a flying guess, I estimate the costs of doing that job at £20 for diesel, £30 for Type 1, £20-£25 for sand; £10-£12 for cement; £30 for slabs; £20 for "cart away" at an absolute minimum. If you do the whole thing in a day, two employees at £100 each makes a total of £330. One has upkeep of van(s), tools etc, the cost of costing the job and one want to make a bit of profit on top.
I know and hope most people on here would lay a much better patio, but would any of you lay a 10'x10' dry bedded patio for £400 or less? Is there a way you would have saved costs that I have not spotted? Was a dry-mix inappropriate here? Is the program "Rogue Traders" clutching at straws to make "good TV" do you think?
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:54 pm
by lutonlagerlout
ted yes they are a couple of wonkers,i watch it to see the frailty of human greed but their "experts" talk shite
i was gonna post myself on it before i saw your one
here in luton this is the job
1 skip = £188 (inc permit and VAT)
2 tonnes MOT =£80 deilvered
3 1 tonne sarp sand = £40
4 5 bags of dust =£15
5 2 bags soft sand for pointing = £4
6 diesel and van running costs per day = £25
7 42 budget flags = £84
8 2 men 1 day paye =£210
9 30 % gross profit out of which comes liability insurance ,tool money ,holiday pay,sick pay,repairs etc=£193.38
10 all together its £839.80 +VAT = £986.76
where on earth they get £300 from is beyond me
goons
they did a block paver last series and i though he did a fair job for the money,shame his lads were weeing everywhere 
what do the rest reckon???
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:04 pm
by Ted
That's a much better cost analysis!
It really is a shame they didn't explain how they did their costings.
I would love to have seen the patio that they could have laid for £200.
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:12 pm
by bobhughes
I didn't see the prog but have often thought that their "reasonable" price is a bit on the low side. Having said that they do a good job exposing some really horrible people who prey on the defencless.
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:13 pm
by lutonlagerlout
cant be done professionaly ,can it?
i had bosch out to fix a boiler the other week,which thankfully their engineer did in 5 minutes flat
this cost £185 which if i was rogue traders, i would be saying thats a total of £2220 per hour
rubbish, i was happy to pay it just to get my hot water back on.
obviously the patio guys tonight were cowboys in the extreme but when you take all the other factors into account their price was low if anything
i have an apprentice who works with me,he is 17 and earns £170 a week (minimun wage) how do they think people learn the building trade?? when the boss is getting £300 for a grands worth of patio he wont be able to employ apprentices will he?
the problem is ppl watch this junk,and then ring me up and say i want a £300 patio
you have to laugh or you would cry
LLL
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:22 pm
by Mark B
did you see the guy trying to cut bak the grass etc with a hedge trimer and then ending up tearing it out with his bare hands haha. i agree, i dont know how they could hav managed to lay the patio for under 300 quid.
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:26 pm
by Ted
cant be done professionaly ,can it?
I can't see how. I trust those "Rogue Trader" presenters would offer at least a one years' guarantee on their £200 patio given that they are so honourable. This would really ensure they were left out of pocket!
the problem is ppl watch this junk,and then ring me up and say i want a £300 patio
This is the problem. Programs like this give normal people the impression that building work is as cheap as chips. As it is only cowboys and the like who can do jobs this cheaply by cutting corners, this program is just fuelling the market for these cowboys. But I guess they have to ensure the long term survival of their show!
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:34 pm
by bobhughes
I saw one a while ago where the rouge did a really crap job setting out a water feature, a path and some plants. Afterwards they got a genuine team to tear it out and do a proper job. A couple of days later someone stole the lot - even the flags off the path.
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:37 pm
by Mark B
was that the one where the guy had made a rockery in behind the water feature and put one plant in it, the soil was full of half bricks etc
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:37 pm
by bobhughes
Yep that's the one
One of the biggest encouragements for cowboys is VAT. They say "Pay cash and forget the VAT" Of course there is no reciept and no guarrantee. I got caught like that once myself on some building work
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:41 pm
by lutonlagerlout
ye VAT is a big liability,personally i think everyone should pay VAT on materials and thats it,
it just confuses and upsets people having to pay it on materials and labour,i cant see why we dont just have a sales tax like they do in the usa,you pay it and thats it job done
problem is people like ashley cole pay less tax than me but he earns double my yearly every week
work that one out???
cheers LLL
the whole business of VAT encourages dishonesty
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:46 pm
by lutonlagerlout
Programs like this give normal people the impression that building work is as cheap as chips
that property ladder is the same,mss beaney said to a couple that a temporary roof over their house would cost about £1200
ha no chance
the one we are using at the moment costs £4500,but if people had saw this programme they would think they are getting ripped off
as a side note i think the gaffers prices are a bit low,but the problem down south is that all the builders yards are getting built on,my pal had a yard 80 ft by 25 ft and he got 50 k from a developer for it,so what it means is we have no storage facility apart from lock up garages,this increases our costs
regards LLL
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:05 am
by Stuarty
After watching rogue traders, im often wondering who the biggest rogues are, the conmen workies, or the "experts" who encourage cheap work by telling the viewers what a job should cost. I find people who avidly watch programs such as this, Ground Force etc along with the clients who try to catch you out by standing at the window watching what your doing whilst they read "101 steps to getting the perfect garden" Dr Gunther von Dunce or whatever and try to get the bill chopped down irritating they seem to feel they know it all cos they seen it on the telly, or on page 59. And again, you speak so many wise words LLL, VAT is very arse-for-elbow.
Thats my piece
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:49 pm
by slickboy
I couldn't beliieve one of the prices the "expert" suggested . It probably boils down to the leverage the producers put on the "expert" in trying to get a ridiculously low price recommendation to make the cowboys look even worse. It fuels that amazement some people experience when we tell them that having bricklayers and landscapers working on their house for weeks installing real stone flags ect. etc will cost more than £1000!
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:23 pm
by Ted
Does anyone know what method the Rogue Traders crew would have emmployed if they had been laying the patio?
They said the "dry-mix method was inappropriate" and so I assume they were going to use a wet-mix. IME a wet-mix is more hastle and I would charge more if a client said they wanted a wet-mix instead of a dry-mix, if I thought a dry-mix was fine.