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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:35 pm
by gardeninggal
Hi Everyone,
If anyone could give me some pointers or where to go with the following, I'd really appreciate it!
The frost damaged mortar in the little garden wall I built is still dragging on I'm afraid, and I'm not sure where I stand.
The crumbling mortar has been attributed to the frost - but the client is saying that a couple of builders have been round to quote on other work and have said that it was not the frost, but poor workmanship that made it happen and has mentioned the following:
a) The mortar joints were larger than 10mm and so did not dry out quickly enough before the winter frosts - they were a little bigger, but just to avoid cutting bricks as advised in my brick building book - would having slightly bigger mortar joints really have a massive effect?
b) The joints were not pointed to a recognized style which meant they were not sealed against the weather - the striking was flush - but as it was on a curved wall, it wasn't very tidy - but still sealed - ?
c) No mortar plasticizer - I have been advised by the BDA not to use a plasticizer in mortar - its ok in concrete, but weakens the mortar - what do you think?
d) No hessian cover was used to protect the wall, but a double layer of tarp was used and it was covered for three weeks - any thoughts on this please
The client supplied all the sand, bricks and cement for the project
I've offered to rebuild the wall for her, but she has decided that she wants her money back and for someone else to build it for her - which I need the help with as I'm not sure where I stand!
Any help or thoughts would be hugely appreciated! 
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:11 pm
by Amogen
Do you have any pictures of this so called defective pointing??
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:27 pm
by dig dug dan
if the customer has supplied the materials, this will go in your favour, as it could be contaminated sand.
Plasticiser as far as i know, is to make the mortar workable, and help is adhere to the trowell, so not sure on that count.
as for the pointing, it shouldn't matter how you finish it. scrape it with your hands if you like, the bonding between layers should be strong enough.
Your offer of rebuilding the wall is more than acceptable, and she cant ask for a refund when this offer has been refused, and she has supplied the materials.
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:00 pm
by gardeninggal
Thanks guys, your support is really appreciated!
I have some photo's I can upload, but am not sure how to do it on the forum, could I email them to you please Amogen?
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:19 pm
by Tony McC
a - joint width is largely irrelevant. And a true professional brickie would know that mortar "cures" : it does not "dry out".
b - err...flush *is* a recognised pointing style! It's not used often, but it is used, and is featured in many brick-laying text books.
c - I can't believe the BDA is saying not to use a plasticiser in brick laying mortar. If they said that using lime would be preferable, I'd agree, but surely a plasticised mortar (not wash-up liquid) has to be better than unplasticised (pronounced "un-bloody-workable"!)
d - A tarp would have provided the same protection as hemp, albeit at a higher retained humidity
All in all, it sounds like some arsey brickie trying to sound clever and show off in front of a customer. That's not to say that there's nowt wrong with the mortar: I can't say, as I haven't seen it, but the reasoning put forward above is bollocks.
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:38 pm
by GB_Groundworks
how ever told you about plasticiser wants sacking
quote:
Lime is frequently used as an additive in bricklaying mortar mixes to provide a smoother shrink free mix with the added advantage that the mortar when dry retains a little flexibility to cope with such movement as thermal expansion and contraction.
But lime delays the drying time of the mix, weakens it slightly, and is relatively expensive. Plasticiser has all the advantages of lime and none of the disadvantages. This liquid admixture plasticises a cement/sand mix using less gauging water than usual, giving an easily workable ‘fatty’ mortar with strong
adhesion. It has a reasonably fast initial setting period but leaves ample time for the adjustment of bricks.
When dry the mortar with added plasticiser is more resistant to the effects of frost than a standard cement/sand/lime mix.
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:45 pm
by Pablo
gardeninggal wrote:c) No mortar plasticizer - I have been advised by the BDA not to use a plasticizer in mortar - its ok in concrete, but weakens the mortar - what do you think?
Tracey did you use an unplasticised mortar if so then there is no way you could have built it to a good standard and there is also no chance of the pointing being well finished. You have confused mortar and concrete. Building mortar must be plasticised to make it workable and concrete will be weakened if you add it. Or have I read your statement wrongly.
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:46 pm
by Pablo
Beaten again by Giles.:laugh:
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:59 pm
by GB_Groundworks
haha pablo but your right, mucks useless without plasticiser
as for your problem, you need to talk to the client and rebuild the wall at your cost. i would have been reluctant to use their materials but if in your judgement they were fine and fit for purpose which i assume they were as you used them then its down to you to put it right.
as for her wanting another builder to do it, fight your corner and say she can have the right to sign off on it.
we did a job on a sit doing the perimeter walls and while digger the footing next doors drive and car port collapsed onto our site. there was a 500mm difference in levels so her car port which was 3 bits of 4x2 and some clear plastic corrugated sheets collapsed and a couple of course of block paving. we offered to fix it and put it back right but she got a party wall surveyor in ran on for 2 years, we sheet piled it and eventually put it right. but he got quotes from huge civils companys and nationals prices like £80k for a grands worth of work. he was a nasty piece of work that little man, even put a charge against the houses being built on the site. so bit of a scare story but keep it friendly as the only people who benefit out of dispute are lawyers and surveyors.
gi
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:05 pm
by lutonlagerlout
i served my time as a brickie and if you send me a picture i will tell you straight away if its acceptable ,with no BS
i built a wall outside my own house 3 years ago and this winter was so harsh that some of the mortar joints have crumbled on the tile creasing,the mortar was fine until our recent -10 temperatures
picture pls
LLL
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:31 pm
by GB_Groundworks
if you email them to me giles @ the domain listed in my signature i will post them up or i'm sure tony would also.
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:28 am
by gardeninggal
Thanks guys! I'll pop the images through to giles' email and if he can upload them - then everyone can have a good look and pass their comments!
Cheers
Trace
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:03 pm
by GB_Groundworks
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:32 pm
by Dave_L
I'm not a brickie by any stretch of the imagination, but that doesn't look good to me.......
Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:17 pm
by GB_Groundworks
yeah i thought that when i saw the photos on email its a bit ropey, did you mix the mortar in a mixer. its looks very dry and flakey and did you joint it afterwards with a jointer etc?
