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Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:34 pm
by Bob_A
I was talking to a friend about creating a paved area (25sq metres?) at the end of my garden He mentioned using grano as an alternative to paving, it's something that he lays in a factory enviroment, he said that when troweled correctly it can end up with a attractive glitter finish.
Best bit was that he would help me to do it for free 
We didn't go too much into actual detail that's something we'll have to talk about but I think the idea was to lay a couple of inches of grano over a type1 sub base.
I searched the main site for grano. there were a few references to it but I couldn't find any mention of it being used as above.
To be honest I'm not sure what the finish looks like, are there any types of places I could visit to see.
Anyone got any comments please
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:22 pm
by Tony McC
Grano is a hard-wearing fine-grained concrete based on a crushed granite or hard limestone aggregate. Normally, it is laid a a 'top coat' over standard concrete and typical applications would be workshop floors and, in particular, sewer benching.
However, 50mm laid over a flexible sub-base would crack as soon as a vehicle went over it. It's no stronger than 'normal' concrete, but is often more durable and resistant to abrasion. It's also easier to 'trowel-up' to create a smooth finish, which is especially important in sewer benching.
Not so sure about the 'glitter finish'. That can happen with the granitic stuff, but I've never seen it with the more common limestone version.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:55 pm
by Bob_A
Thanks Tony.
I shall have to have another word with him and make sure I understood correctly.
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:19 pm
by Bob_A
Tony McC wrote:However, 50mm laid over a flexible sub-base would crack as soon as a vehicle went over it.
I haven't been able to get back in touch with him to discuss the glitter/shiny effect.
The area won't be receiving any vehicles but thinking about it though 50mm does seem a bit thin.
If I was to go ahead what would be the recommendations
How about having similar guidelines as PIC regarding membranes, thicknesses of sub base etc.
http://www.pavingexpert.com/pic02.htm
Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:46 pm
by Bob_A
Tony McC wrote:Grano is a hard-wearing fine-grained concrete based on a crushed granite or hard limestone aggregate. Normally, it is laid a a 'top coat' over standard concrete and typical applications would be workshop floors and, in particular, sewer benching.
However, 50mm laid over a flexible sub-base would crack as soon as a vehicle went over it. It's no stronger than 'normal' concrete, but is often more durable and resistant to abrasion. It's also easier to 'trowel-up' to create a smooth finish, which is especially important in sewer benching.
Not so sure about the 'glitter finish'. That can happen with the granitic stuff, but I've never seen it with the more common limestone version.
Had a chat with my mate tonight.
Seems he was talking about the 6mm down to dust grantic stuff. The reason he suggested it was that the area in question is at the far end of the garden where looks are not as important. However the finish he could achieve would be better than plain concrete.
We didn't really speak too much about the overall make up but 3" of granatic/cement mix over 3" type1 was mentioned.
Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:11 am
by seanandruby
The shine would be a powerfloat, or well hand trowelled finish. I suspect the glitter could be the metal pin like fibre reinforcing. if looks arent that important why go through the trouble and expense for grano?
Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:12 am
by Bob_A
Looks aren't completely unimportant, I'm not after a showpiece but something a bit better than plain concrete would be nice.
I've not really thought about the trouble and expensive, I'm only too grateful that I've been offered help. :laugh:
Was also toying with the idea of colouring it.
Not sure what would be the best method, the powdered dye the PIC contracters use came to mind or are there better methods?
Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:28 pm
by Tony McC
If you want a smooth-ish coloured concrete surface, then use plain concrete with the colour-hardener used by the PIC industry. That would work out much cheaper than grano.
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:55 am
by Bob_A
Tony McC wrote:If you want a smooth-ish coloured concrete surface, then use plain concrete with the colour-hardener used by the PIC industry. That would work out much cheaper than grano.
Going to use 1.5cu metres of plain concrete.
I was reckoning grano being about 2.5 times the cost of concrete but turns out it will be 4 times the amount. Mate who will be doing the finishing says he's confident that he'll be able to get a good finish.
Won't be having the concrete delivered ready mixed as it's too difficult to wheelbarrow it through the house and then 100ft to the back of the gadren, so will be using a cement mixer.
So that leaves the question of whether to colour it.
I've been trying to found out where to get the stuff that the PIC contractors use. None of my builders merchants can supply it, it seems you have to go to a PIC wholesale company and they only sell it in huge trade quantities.
I get the feeling the PIC industry want to keep themselves to themselves.
I can get ordinary cement dye at £6/kilo but from what I can gather you need a kilo per bag of cement. Now that is expensive! Also will it gives good results?
Perhaps I won't bother colouring it and see how it turns out, can I colour it afterwards?
And finally I keep hearing about adding fibres to concrete to reinforce it.
Also heard that it's difficult to distribute the fibres evenly in an ordinary cement mixer.
Is it worth using fibres, if so where can I get them?
Thanks in advance
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:34 pm
by lutonlagerlout
BMs sell bags of fibres,they are called "tdm" i believe
IMO dyes are a waste of time and money,sod the pic people,if you knock up a nice strong mix the concrete will be easy to finish
tamp it, level, it trowel it,leave a while then brush it with a soft brush ,then trowel the edges with a curve edging trowel
spend a bit of time and it will look great
used the dyes before and after a couple of years they look pants
LLL
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:18 pm
by Bob_A
Cheers LLL
Not going to bother with a dye, ones reason is that local BM's usually only sell black, brown or red and what I'd really like is a certain shade of green (fussy git ain't I lol).
Second reason is that like you say dye's aren't much cop anyway so I'd rather settle for whatever colour it ends up.
Just out of curiosity is it possible to colour concrete after it has set? I suppose you could paint it, I've heard that there are special industrial coatings which are used in places like football stadiums.
Or are there any ways? like I say I probably won't bother but as some one said I have a thirst for knowledge lol
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:41 pm
by lutonlagerlout
this country isnt really geared up for it bob
too wet so no matter what colour you dye it it ends up a slimy green after a bit
the USA is big on concrete and there are lots of choices,they do a lot of polished concrete with different aggregates in the mix,alas not here
LLL
Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:54 am
by seanandruby
Done a lot of armoured floors in baggage areas at airports. the final layer is onlly a few ml thick and different colours for different uses and segregation, bags of fine metal filings ( like K D S ) in the mix. price is off the scale for D I Y tho.
Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:34 am
by Suggers
My folks have an exposed aggregate concrete terrace, round the house they built in the early 50's. Still looks great today.
Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 1:04 pm
by lutonlagerlout
you know what its like suggers,some one sees it thinks "urgh,thats old" next thing its injun stone or block paving
there is some good old stuff around but most gets ripped out in the name of progress
LLL