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Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:44 am
by nitpicker16
Hi,
I have employed a Landscaper to install a silver granite patio to the rear of my property. The job has been almost been completed, but following heavy rain we have observed the following problems:
1) Water is running towards the wall of the house. The contractor has told me that this was intentional as he is running water to nearby gulley. I dont accept that this is good practice.
2) Some of the slabs have been laid unevenly and there are raised corner and edges vxpected with machine cut hammered granite. This is visible when you walk on it or look across it. He maintains that this is not an issue and that we are "nit picking". He said that this is to be expected when using machine cut granite slabs. The work is costing a lot of money and we contracted him as he is a qualified Landscaper and we were sure he knew what he was doing.
We asked a friend with building experience to review the area and they said it is a bad job and that the levels and falls are incorrect. The Landscaper is getting annoyed that we have queried the work and to be honest we have not been able to reach a resolution. We have still not paid the final installment. Can anyone offer any advice?
Thanks.
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:45 am
by nitpicker16
Ok, my contractor has now admitted there are issues with fall and setting of granite slabs. His suggested fix is to insert another linear drain and to re-seat the slabs along the wall of the house to correct the drainage. I am concerned that by only adjusting those along house wall the level of the other slabs will still look off. I can attach a pic of the patio as is... Just looking for advice on whether this will remedy my issues or should he be lifting and re-setting more of the patio.
thanks
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:50 pm
by digerjones
Pictures are what we need but it sounds like it's not good. Falls should be decided at start of project
Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:48 pm
by lutonlagerlout
funny enough we shall be laying these tomorrow (not at your house I hasten to add)
we installed a linear drain at the start of the project and and falls run to that drain
the flags are very very accurate no reason for any to be sticking up at corners
LLL
Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:39 am
by nitpicker16
Hi, Thanks for the replies, I had trouble getting pictures uploaded but will try again later. He is here today to re-grout the areas he lifted yesterday. I am not a builder, but I can see that the problems with water drainage and pooling have not been remedied. We have also pointed out the edges sticking up and have been told we are being unreasonable and that pooling is only a few mm and will dry off. The job is priced at 6500 euros and I am not at all satisfied with the finish. It is set to rain heavily later today so I am hoping I can take more pictures of the patio and post them here for review. I just wanted to be sure that we are correct to reject the rubbish he is feeding us. We noted that the slabs he lifted yesterday were reset with blobs of cement.......I understand this is not good practice!
Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:47 pm
by nitpicker16
Pics of patio after light rain are uploaded on webpage below. Opinions welcome....is the water pooling on the patio acceptable or not?
https://patioguy16.wixsite.com/patioguy
Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:08 pm
by lutonlagerlout
it doesnt look hideous by any means
but shouldnt be any pooling
this is what we laid today between rain storms
granite patio
courtesy of london stone
LLL
Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:09 pm
by lutonlagerlout
note the fall is all one way to a linear drain connected to a soakaway
LLL
Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:50 pm
by nitpicker16
Hi Thanks, yes maybe not the worst but not great for the price.
Today it rained heavily and we noted that the linear drain was blocked with fastflow mortar. I pulled the recessed grate up and cleared the rubble...now the grate wont fit back in. He made a step and in process has blocked up the slits at bottom of patio doors.....water was getting into the tracks. His assistant had helpfully drilled two holes into the door frame....unfortunately, in the wrong place. They damaged the waste pipe from kitchen so water is running down the outside wall. Will have to get a drain rod to clear the blockage in pipe below the linear drain. At this point am not too sure if we will be paying the outstanding balance. Going to get a surveyor in to assess the work and price up any remedial actions. If only you had laid my patio...I would be a happy customer. Honestly didn't think he would do a bad job.
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:35 pm
by Tony McC
You employed a 'landscaper' to install an expensive and technically demanding flasgtone. Why did you not employ a professional paving contractor? While some self-declared 'landscapers' are perfectly capable of undertaking high quality paving installation, most who do so tend to promote themselves as paving professionals, rather than the more generalist soubriquet of 'landscaper'.
The problems you describe would never have happened with a paving professional, one that is familiar with best practice and the latest installation techniques.
Laying onto mortar spots, allowing water to run along the wall of a property, and having lipped edges might have been acceptable 30 years ago, but not nowadays.
The ponding apparent in your photoies is unnecessary and unacceptable. That stone is relatively smooth (unlike, say, riven sandstone) and there is plenty of scope to generate adequate falls, so there is no excuse for any standing water.
Finally, asking a 'surveyor' to comment on paving is stretching them to, and very often beyond, their limits. Surveyors tend to have no training or familiarity with paving. Their knowledge is limited because they rarely, if ever, get asked to assess paving work. Asa with landscapers, there *are* some surveyors that are competent when it comes to paving, drainage and groundworks, but they are few and far between. Some of the most baffling and contradictory assessments I've encountered have been produced by surveyors who seem to believe paving is best thought of as horizontal walling.
Make sure that any surveyor you commission has experinence with paving works and is not just 'guessing' when it comes to what is or isn't acceptable. Ask them which standards they'll be using as a benchmark. If they can't answer immediately, find someone else.
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:01 pm
by nitpicker16
Thanks Tony,
From the pictures you reviewed, do you think extensive work is required to correct the issues or are we going to have to accept the fact that it is a bad job ?. He has already been given a chance to remedy the issues, but after more heavy showers of rain we can see that the pooling is still an issue (despite the rework on the area under the kitchen window). We are going to email him again stating the problems and see what he says. At this point we are not happy about paying him the final installment. Any advice re: best way to proceed? I have identified a surveyor and will call on Monday to see if he can help.
Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:01 pm
by lutonlagerlout
someone like you Tony ?
in fairness there are some very good landscapers that lay flags,same as there are a few builders that can lay them,
But the people of the standard of MickG, Cookie, Dempsey, Brockstone, Noony, Dig Dug Dan, and anyone else I forgot are few and far between
I just try to emulate the greats,but the most important thing is setting out falls correctly
never compromise on what is correct
we will build a step in front of the linear drain,the top of the step will sail 40mm leaving the drain clear and only a 60mm gap to the patio doors
LLL
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:47 am
by Tony McC
lutonlagerlout wrote:someone like you Tony ?
I just worry about the 'quality' of some of the surveyors I come up against when wearing my 'expert witness' hat.
Like the eejit who claimed, in front of a magistrate, that it didn't matter that the paving was just 50mm or so below DPC because there was a wide-ish eave on the house which would protect that area of paving from any rain......and, as we all know, rain only ever comes down plumb vertical!
Talking about, say, windows or RSJs, he was, most likely, highly competent, but when it came to paving, he was a pillock.
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:14 pm
by nitpicker16
Hi all,
Well, we emailed the contractor more pictures of the issues we had noted. We stated that we did not feel that the price initially agreed was reflected in the finish and that we felt the remaining payment would have to be re-negotiated. He has replied again insisting that the pooling is not an issue as only mm. He stated that the drainage would stand up to persistent heavy rain and that water would not lie for long against wall of the house. His solution is to come tomorrow to lift slabs in areas where pooling is observed. I am not really confident that this solution will work as surely more of the patio will be affected. Is this correct? Could the problems be simply resolved or would larger sections have to be removed and re-done? We can live with the existing issues but would not expect to pay him the full fee.
Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:16 am
by lutonlagerlout
trying to renegotiate when the job is done is a bad move IMHO
yes you can point out faults to be corrected but knocking someone's money after completion is bad form
we are always happy to put something right,as should anyone who makes a mistake
LLL
