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Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:48 pm
by scotty78
Hi
Looking for some advice about joint balancing, basically the stone I am looking at is from the 600 series but the smaller flags are 300 x 300 and 600 x 300. So no allowance has been made for the extra joints.
I have read the page on joint balancing but wanted to ask. I had intended to use spacers while laying my patio but guessing this wouldn't work due to the extra joints and then having to balance the joints?
Regarding balancing joint widths I will be applying sbr and have read this really sticks the stone down to the sub base, does this impact on trying to move the stone to balance joints? like does it set really quickly.
On the plus side I dug out for my type 1 today, I know you guys are used to it but no machine access, flights of stairs to contend with, I'm knackered, take my hat off to you guys who do it daily.
Thanks
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:14 pm
by lutonlagerlout
hmmm that is unusual
in that range the small units are normally 290 by 290,
we set up a gauge and lay to the line
so the line moves forward 310mm every time and we lay the flags , regardless of anything else
you may have to lay the small units with very tight joints and carefully saw them off after it has gone off with a stihl saw or such
otherwise the bigger units will have huge joints which looks pants
cheers LLL 
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:38 pm
by scotty78
I haven't actually measured them but the bradstone book is showing both the honed sawn smooth and the riven as patio packs with 13 900 x 600 13 600 x 600 13 600 x 300 and 9 300 x 300.
Will look into a gauge, new to this never seen it done and don't know anyone who has anything more exotic than ancient wetcast slabs :laugh:
cheers
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:29 pm
by Tony McC
The market is so well supplied that there are packs that offer, say, 290x290s, there's 295x295s, and there's 300x300s. There's one fairly large distributor that does a 290x600 but pairs it with 300x300s!
The Bradstone flags are, according to a customer last week, "bang on" 300mm and not, as his supplier had told him, 12 inches (which would actually be 305mm).
Whichever 'set' you choose, there will inevitably be some joint balancing to be done. Sometimes (and I have such a design in front of me right now) the 290x600 is paired with a 290x290, making a 20mm joint. The whole point of having flags below the module size is supposed to be to make joint balancing easier, but it doesn't always work that way!
When laying, the balancing really is best left until a reasonable area is covered, making it easier to judge which flags need tweaking and by how much, but when a bond bridge is involved, this can limit just how practical this might be. In such cases, it's often best to balance every square metre or so, before the primer has a chance to start curing, and, as LLL suggested, rely on gauge set string lines to judge just how accurate you are being.
One of the advantages of using a plan for random layouts is that it's easy to spot just where the heaviest balancing will have to be done before the flags are laid, so making it easier to know whether a bit of balancing is warranted or whether it would naturally correct itself in another couple of flags.
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:29 pm
by scotty78
My stone is getting delivered tomorrow but wont be laying it for a week or so, will measure it when it comes to see if the joint has been allowed for on the smaller flags. I did measure one and was sure it was 600 x 290. I made up a random plan using your advice and excel as my patio is 10600 long and 2320 wide, I will put in my drain and just make the patio 2100 wide so I don't really have any cuts, same with length basing it on 35 x 300. I may well get a random layout plan made to help with joint balancing, I spent about 6 hours trying to figure it all out the other day 
As I say mines is just a big rectangle only thing is one step from the back door I literally have 1 cut to make but working out plans and keeping it properly random on bigger more complicated patios must be a total nightmare.
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:11 pm
by sy76uk
The 2 Tonys above have pretty much covered everything. All I can say is that it's a PITA
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:37 pm
by lutonlagerlout
scotty if you are going random on a large-ish area the gaffer's plans are a god send
1 you order the exact number of flags you need
2 he has randomised it so that you dont get too many fat ones
3 its easy to follow as each size is colour coded
I have used this service and it is VERY reasonable and saves you time and money long term
LLL
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:48 am
by Tony McC
I agree with LL completely!