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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:22 am
by Diygirl
I'm laying Indian sandstone paving over 15m2 (6m x 2.5m) and would love to confirm if my plan is sound. I've done lots of research online, but with so many conflicting opinions, I'd feel better if someone could just check if there are any flaws/omissions before I begin.
1. We already have 150mm dug out with a 1:60 slope away from the house (starting 200mm away from the house, as we didn't want to go below the DPM)
2. Dry run of pavers on empty bed to check the layout matches my design and fits properly, then remove from empty bed
3. Add about 90mm of scalpings or MOT1 sub base, levelled with 1:60 (i.e. 3 tonnes worth!)
4. Two runs of compacting with a hired compactor plate, recheck levels
5. Mix 10:1 sharp sand:cement with some water (not too wet) and lay 40mm for one paver at a time. The pavers are 15-25mm each so will need varying heights. Laid bigger than actual paver for adjustment
6. Use a mallet to level the paver and wipe off any mess
7. Repeat steps 4 and 5, with 10mm gap between pavers checking levels as I go
8. Use an angle grinder to cut pavers at edges where necessary (to be honest, I'll get someone else to do this bit as I'm too scared to use heavy tools like that!)
9. Wait 24 hours
10. Use 4:1 building sand:cement and water for pointing between pavers, wiping off as I go
So, that's the plan. I've never actually used cement before, as I have only built decking outside previously. Not sure how wet to make my mix for bedding and pointing, so any tips would be appreciated.
All advice welcome. Thanks a lot! 
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:15 am
by r896neo
Firstly good on you for giving it a go.
You sounds like your on the right track. a few pointers from my opinion.
1. not sure what you mean by this? Your finished paving height should be a minimum of 150mm below dpc but it can be more.
4. Unless your using a very heavy plate a few extra passes would be better. Go for 8 passes as it will only take an extra 15 mins.
5. I would use 6:1 personally and would suggest that a newbie to mortar will find it much easier to use quite a wet mix, similar to a slightly stiffer brick laying consistancy as it will spread better as you tap the flag into it. With a semi dry mix you need to have the bed very good before tapping the flag down.
If you know anyone who has some experience with mortar get them to make the first mix with you or Watch a video online as getting the mortar right will make the whole thing much easier.
A good test of your bedding is to lay a few and then lift one back up and check there are no voids in the bed but its a nice flat bed in full contact with all of the flag.
9. If you use 10:1 stay off it for 2 days. If you use 6:1 you'll be ok to get on it the next day.
Good luck.
I'm sure others will be along to offer their advice too.
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:35 am
by Diygirl
Thanks so much.
1) Sorry, I meant the distance from the house, not the depth. We were told that if we're far enough away from the house we don't have to worry about going below the DPM. We'll then have small stones to fill the gap.
4) I'll definitely go 8 passes or so on the compactor - if I'm going to hire it, I may as well!
5) I've got a friend who has laid paving before who tells me it's easier to use completely dry mortar mix on top of screeded sand. I personally like the sound of this as it seems easier (and I've always secretly wanted to screed something as it looks like fun!), but I haven't heard of this online. Can anyone recommend or not recommend this method?
Thanks again. This website and forum are a godsend!
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:08 pm
by Tony McC
1 - that's the bollocky 'splash strip' urban myth which claims that somehow, if you use gravel against the house, DPC levels and drainage don't matter. That is just plain wrong. Splash strips are a nonsense.
2 - a dry run with hefty flags is all well and good until you realise just how much back-ache is involved. If you have an accurate layout design worked out in advance, a dry run should not be necessary.
4 - as already stated, 2 passes of the plate will tickle the sub-base bit barely compact it. You pass and pass and pass again, at different directions, until you reach 'refusal', the point at which the stone will compact no further. This might be 8 passes, it might be 18 - it all depends on your kit.
5 - 10:1 is fine for patios and very forgiving for DIYers. You get a longer working life and less risk of staining. Go for a moist mix, which has the 'give' you need for bedding but isn't as messy as wet mix. Aim for a bed that is 25-40mm thick when the flag is comacted down.
8 - cutting is best done with a diamond blade fitted to a cut-off saw with proper dust suppression. Nangle grinders rarely have dust suppression, and the smaller ones wander too much during the cut so you get iffy lines.
10 - pointing with a cemet mortar is cheap, but time consuming and potentially messy. Have a look at some of the polymeric and/or resin mortars. They are more expensive but they are fast and they are clean.
....and don't forget to post photies to show us your work!
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:10 pm
by Tony McC
Ooops! Forgot to comment on your point 5 - this friend of yours: s/he is a pillock and should be completely ignored.
Bone dry sand/cement screeded over sand? Recipe For Disaster. 
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:23 pm
by Diygirl
Thanks Tony.
Really helpful. I'll look into the polymetric/resin mortars as they sound much faster and easier, thanks.
I can't be certain I've got my friend's plans completely accurate, but since finding this website and forum I feel much more confident about managing the project myself. He is very good at levelling so I should be able to use his expertise to get things straight (and to do the heavy lifting!).
So, if this splashstrip stuff is nonsense, do I only have these options?
A) Hire someone to dig another 150mm down and have my paving up to the house (£££) - which would mean a big step down to go outside
B) Leave 150 -200mm between the paving and the house with a big chasm of nothing - surely a little dangerous?
Thanks again for all the other tips, so helpful! :p
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:11 pm
by Diygirl
This is my plan for the paving. I'm getting the sub base delivered tomorrow and then the compactor for the weekend. Should I put sub base to the exact measurements of the paving?
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:00 pm
by Diygirl
Thanks for the info. on the DPC (I was calling it DPM, but I guess you know what I mean). Here's my idea so far:
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:52 pm
by lutonlagerlout
Hi DIY girl
1. We already have 150mm dug out with a 1:60 slope away from the house (starting 200mm away from the house, as we didn't want to go below the DPM)
dont want to below the DPM???
its not optional,in rare cases we have gone flush with dpm but this involves serious forethought and structural work to the house beforehand
2. Dry run of pavers on empty bed to check the layout matches my design and fits properly, then remove from empty bed
as said a waste of calories, keep it right and have cuts at one end
3. Add about 90mm of scalpings or MOT1 sub base, levelled with 1:60 (i.e. 3 tonnes worth!)
3 tonnes sounds a lot for that area
i would think more like 2
4. Two runs of compacting with a hired compactor plate, recheck levels
wack wack and wack again
5. Mix 10:1 sharp sand:cement with some water (not too wet) and lay 40mm for one paver at a time. The pavers are 15-25mm each so will need varying heights. Laid bigger than actual paver for adjustment
i would use 6:1 and add SBR
6. Use a mallet to level the paver and wipe off any mess
a mallet is used to tap down the paver to your lines,you need to use lines to get the fall correct
7. Repeat steps 4 and 5, with 10mm gap between pavers checking levels as I go
this bit is rightish
8. Use an angle grinder to cut pavers at edges where necessary (to be honest, I'll get someone else to do this bit as I'm too scared to use heavy tools like that!)
PPE required and dust suppresion
9. Wait 24 hours
yes!
10. Use 4:1 building sand:cement and water for pointing
between pavers, wiping off as I go
be careful as wiping off as you go could be messy
its a do-able project but I worry that someone who has never worked with cement may come unstuck
if the subbase is in its a days work for a pro, and I would strongly suggest using a polymeric
I.E> weatherpoint 365 for the pointing
take your time and do not be frightened to take something up if its wrong
we all started somewhere
personally i like a wetter mix
good luck
LLL
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:45 am
by Diygirl
I found pave fix plus at Travis Perkins. Sounds like a much better plan, thanks a lot. I've also put down only 8 pavers as a dry run, to check the overall feel. Glad for the save in calories!
With two of us working on laying the pavers together, should we be able to do 15m2 in one day do you think?
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:35 pm
by r896neo
Personally i would stump up the extra money for marshalls weatherpoint 365 as i haven't heard good things about pave fix plus.
You should be able to do 15m in a day if there aren't too many cuts. I can lay 25m a day on my own if i have ready mix mortar delivered.
One person will be constantly making mortar as a 900x600 slab will take most of a barrow when laid 40mm thick.
Try and get your slabs near to where they are laid and have your sand set up in a good spot for the mixer so there isn't too much faffing about
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:24 pm
by Diygirl
Thanks so much. Lots of great advice which I shall be taking! :p
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:27 pm
by Forestboy1978
You've got balls!
Hang on ???
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:54 pm
by lutonlagerlout
Forestboy1978 wrote:You've got balls!
Hang on ???
the clue is in the name FB :;):
try and use a line diygirl
the line never lies as we say in the building game
LLL