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Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:20 pm
by galaxy
I had a patio laid recently, I had requested "plain grey" slabs. I knew nothing about available slabs; I was depending on the contractor's expertise to supply something appropriate. It rained when the patio was completed, and only when the rain eventually ceased and the patio dried out, did it become obvious that the slabs (in my opinion) were terrible, with bad discolouration and marking; and were anything but plain! I investigated further and found that the contractor used grey Bradstone Peak Paving smooth 400x400mm. I further discovered that this is classed as "utility paving" and is not recommended for patios. I have seen pictures on Bradstone's web site of the slabs, and they are nothing like as bad as those I had installed. In fact they would have been quite acceptable to me as illustrated on the web site.
The contractor says he has been using these slabs for patios for years, and has never had a problem before, and admits he has never seen anything as bad the slabs in our installation, and that he agrees that they are unacceptable for purpose! He was unaware that they were classed as "not suitable for patio use" until I found this info and showed him. He feels aggrieved with Bradstone.
My question: Is the term "utility paving" a universal get-out clause, meaning that any old rubbish can be used and there is no minimum standard? Or are there minimum standards of acceptability even for this? I have attached a photo, what does anyone on this forum think? The slabs in the picture are completely dry. Thanks. 
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:33 pm
by DNgroundworks
Hi, why are they not suitable for patio use, what is there intended use? That doesnt make sense tbh, utilitarian to me suggests they could be used on a public pavement or such like?
Anyhow the discoloration looks like picture framing to me, never had it happen to me that bad before, what was the bedding mix that was used?
Also id never joint those flags like that, to me (whether its right or wrong as per this site) i use a very minimal butt joint and kiln dried sand for the jointing, looks miles better.
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:49 pm
by lutonlagerlout
for utility read budget
bradstone are talking shite if they say not suitable for patios
I cant see the whole job but the pointing looks pretty neat from here
how much did you pay per metre for this job?
anything under £50 a metre and you have had a good deal
LLL
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:59 pm
by dig dug dan
I had the same comment when i laid some riven paving from bradstone. "not suitable for patios". so where the hell are they suitable for? the crusher perhaps ???
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:05 pm
by galaxy
dig dug dan wrote:I had the same comment when i laid some riven paving from bradstone. "not suitable for patios". so where the hell are they suitable for? the crusher perhaps ???
The Bradstone web site says suitable for "utility areas and shed bases". If I had a shed base that looked like that I still wouldn't be happy! Regarding the other comment about bedding mix, it was laid on mortar, no idea of precise mix. One slab has been uplifted and kept in a warm area for several weeks to see if that changed the pattern, but no change. The bottom of that flag had no trace of the pattern on the top surface; it looks like bad manufacture to me. But I'm not an expert.
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:19 pm
by lutonlagerlout
it also says
" A tough, hard-wearing, budget paving solution"
and " As a utility paving product, colours and finish will vary. Limited protection in transit means surfaces may scratch"
the question is how much did this patio cost?
by definition a patio is a paved outdoor area adjoining a house
what its paved with is down to personal choice
I am not a fan of those type of budget slabs, because to my mind 70% of the installation cost of any patio is unseen
so might as well get more expensive slabs
but from what I have read on their site there is a total disclaimer regarding colour etc so you are whistling in the wind
also when your slabs cost 9 quid a metre that is most definitely at the budget end of things
sorry I cannot be more helpful
LLL
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:38 pm
by galaxy
lutonlagerlout wrote:it also says
" A tough, hard-wearing, budget paving solution"
and " As a utility paving product, colours and finish will vary. Limited protection in transit means surfaces may scratch"
the question is how much did this patio cost?
by definition a patio is a paved outdoor area adjoining a house
what its paved with is down to personal choice
I am not a fan of those type of budget slabs, because to my mind 70% of the installation cost of any patio is unseen
so might as well get more expensive slabs
but from what I have read on their site there is a total disclaimer regarding colour etc so you are whistling in the wind
also when your slabs cost 9 quid a metre that is most definitely at the budget end of things
sorry I cannot be more helpful
LLL
I was not given a choice of budget slab or premium, just a choice of grey or buff in the same slab. These are the slabs the contractors always use so it would be reasonable to assume they would be suitable. The job wasn't being done down to a tight price. I only found out they were "budget" after the problem appeared. I found the disclaimers myself and pointed these out to the contractor who didn't believe me at first. The builders merchants they came from didn't know either.
It now looks as though Bradstone are prepared to replace them with "Panache" FOC, and I am negotiating to get the contractor to replace them with me paying the difference in original slab cost only. He is negotiating with the builders merchant to contribute on the grounds that they should have known they weren't suitable. They were aware they were for patio use. If it all falls through it's hello small claims court. 
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:09 pm
by lemoncurd1702
For budget slabs they are actually quite hard wearing, made in a similar way to council type slabs only not as thick. I suggest these (albeit of a different manufacturer)if a customer requests a budget slab, but make them aware of the TEMPORARY surface appearance.
The surface appearance does not impede in anything but the initial look. Not absolutely sure why they are like this but it looks like a water mark or the residue of the release agent used in the manufacture.
Give it a few months of the wet and dry cycle of the British weather and they will soon mellow and achieve a more consistent colour.
Utility, I think they mean for areas where you keep the bins etc where decorative slabs are not necessary.
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:15 pm
by lutonlagerlout
I cant see how you would have a leg to stand on in court (personal opinion)
you don't want to tell us the cost of the patio so thats fine
if you had someone with a bit of flair
I.E. some of the top blokes on this site you would be paying upwards of £100 per metre squared
as said the dictionary definition of a patio is "a paved area adjacent to a house"
sounds like that is what you have
not being negative, but its the facts from where i sit
have a nice day 
LLL
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:10 pm
by galaxy
lutonlagerlout wrote:I cant see how you would have a leg to stand on in court (personal opinion)
you don't want to tell us the cost of the patio so thats fine
if you had someone with a bit of flair
I.E. some of the top blokes on this site you would be paying upwards of £100 per metre squared
as said the dictionary definition of a patio is "a paved area adjacent to a house"
sounds like that is what you have
not being negative, but its the facts from where i sit
have a nice day
LLL
Just to reiterate, I didn't know they were cheap slabs until they were laid and the problem appeared. I'm not being evasive about the price, I would need to work out the area and divide the price by it. I don't have the area to hand without going out with a tape measure, it's not a simple rectangle. The total job price was quoted, which was over £5K. In any case, the price is immaterial. If he had given me the option of cheap or expensive slabs and I had knowingly taken the cheap ones, that would be different. What happened was:
I ordered a patio with plain grey slabs.
a) The slabs aren't plain grey
b) They aren't even intended for patios according to the manufacturer.
Therefore I didn't get what I ordered!
I had no idea they were considered to be cheap and nasty until afterwards. The contractor should have known about the slabs being inferior as I'm not a paving expert; I employed him to be. He told me that the slabs were what was normally used for patios.
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:39 am
by lemoncurd1702
Galaxy
Read my post above LLL's.
They are not a bad slab and the colour will fade to a dull grey, fair enough they're not particularly decorative either.
Personally I would have shown a customer with a request such as yours a number of products and the varying price range.
I think defining plain grey could become a moot point in court AKA patio. Is a patio a decorative paved area or just a paved area?
One question had the contractor quoted £5k before or after you asked for plain grey slabs.
Believe me there are nastier products than this, these will give you good service for many years. Some cast slabs at around the same price will crumble away long before yours show any sign of deteriorating.
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:40 am
by mickg
did your builder not show you a sample of the paving before it was laid so you could see what your patio was going to look like ?
you could post a couple of photos from different angles showing the bulk of the patio and we could tell you what the area is without a site visit
there are not that many plain grey flags on the market so you choice was limited, sadly you have been given a bottom end quality product and wet or dry that range of product does not have a quality surface finish - the clue is in the words "utility paving"
Luton is actually trying to help you by asking how much you paid, if your patio is 50m2 then you have paid a lot of money for an inferior product but if its 150m2 for around £5,000 then you got what you paid for
hope this helps
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:56 am
by galaxy
mickg wrote:did your builder not show you a sample of the paving before it was laid so you could see what your patio was going to look like ?
you could post a couple of photos from different angles showing the bulk of the patio and we could tell you what the area is without a site visit
there are not that many plain grey flags on the market so you choice was limited, sadly you have been given a bottom end quality product and wet or dry that range of product does not have a quality surface finish - the clue is in the words "utility paving"
Luton is actually trying to help you by asking how much you paid, if your patio is 50m2 then you have paid a lot of money for an inferior product but if its 150m2 for around £5,000 then you got what you paid for
hope this helps
Sorry, I forgot to say thanks for all your comments, they are much appreciated.
I was shown a sample slab which was actually plain grey without this spurious patterning. Some of the laid slabs are OK like the sample was.
I have worked out the area now, and it's approximately 46 sq metres in total.
I have also attached another photo below showing a view of a different area to the first pic.
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:50 am
by galaxy
lemoncurd1702 wrote:Give it a few months of the wet and dry cycle of the British weather and they will soon mellow and achieve a more consistent colour.
Sorry I meant to comment on the colour differences fading with time. They were laid in August so have already been down for 6 months with no noticeable change.
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:56 am
by lutonlagerlout
you have paid the price there for what could have been indian stone
I dont know the site or the remit but for £100 +per m2 I would expect a better slab
LLL
