Underestimated paving job???? help - Sand base vs mortar dab base

[Northernhandymaniom]

First of all hi there as this is my first topic, post, conversation! I will try and keep this short and sweet for you guys!

I'm a local handyman on the isle of man doing the obvious odd jobs etc etc with a long history of labouring in various trades over the years.
Anyway I cleaned out and repaired a rather large concrete pond a month or so ago which had leaked over a period of time and subsided a 2m x 2m area of the clients old paved/slabbed area at the bottom of the garden about 4mx10m in size altogether, in conversation he said he would like it lifted and replaced with new slabs of his wife's choice as a birthday treat for her! I kindly obliged and said I would love to do the job for him so it was agreed, I lifted the old slabs which were just sitting on I'm guessing good old sharp sand and he said they can just go straight down on a freshly levelled sand base, I agreed to the job and it now is approaching the start of the job(next week).

Now thinking back in time I have laid a patio before which we laid on hardcore then a dabbed mortar base about 4m x 4m sq etc pointed up aswell which never had any come backs from,
Also done loads of block paving jobs on screeded sand only.

The question is to you guys do I and my labourer just go in with the 400mm x 400mm slabs and whack the sandy soil area then just cover in a sharp sand screeded base slap them down as suggested in the previous conversation with him as a cheapie quick job, or should I pull him to the side and say actually the best way to do it would be to use cement and fix them solidly and then point them up to last for years to come?????

And one other question if I were to do the mortar base how much hardcore would be minimum required (thickness) to lay on even though the previous slabs were straight on soily sand base, also please bear in mind that this patio area is not connected to the house it is out of the way at the bottom of the garden in a low use area????

Many thanks and suggestions gratefully received

Andy

[bodgeitandscarper]

READ THE SITE!

[Northernhandymaniom]

Hi I not got time to read the site lol start the job Tuesday!!!! I know the proper way to do it with no come backs or anything, but regarding the conversation where he said just put a fresh sand base down and put em in, do I just go with his instructions or suggest the solid way?

[lutonlagerlout]

NHM
the fact that you mentioned dabs ,means that you are ignorant of british standards for paving
I dont mean this in a disrespectful way ,just that obviously you dont know the correct way

correct way is 100mm of type 1 compacted
40-60mm bed of 6:1 grit sand and cement FULL bed
slabs
dabbing or spot bedding is in now way acceptable no matter how out of the way it is
best get a cup of tea and a packet of hob nobs and have a good read of this
we are not trying to flame you but its disheartening to read your opening post talking of laying on sand and spot bedding
good luck
LLL



Edited By lutonlagerlout on 1366923862

[Jimlad]

Hi mate,

always - without fail use preferably a minimum of 100mm of MOT type 1 hardcore, whack it as you go - one load of whacking at 50mm and another at the 100mm height, whack and check your levels are right, check that there is a slight fall (see website - setting out section)

Then proceed with making/ mixing the mortar (6 parts sand to one part cement and a little plasticiser in there too (read the instructions re amount - only a very small amount needed)

- see website for better info (use search box on the website - it works well)

Then proceed with the putting the slabs on your freshly prepared mortar - one at a time. It's easy - but keep your focus on levels and not getting mortar everywhere

Customers do not know best - just say that this is the only way to do it correctly - or it will just subside again in no time. He'll appreciate you taking the lead and showing the confidence to put him right.

[Northernhandymaniom]

NHM
the fact that you mentioned dabs ,means that you are ignorant of british standards for paving
I dont mean this in a disrespectful way ,just that obviously you dont know the correct way

correct way is 100mm of type 1 compacted
40-60mm bed of 6:1 grit sand and cement FULL bed
slabs
dabbing or spot bedding is in now way acceptable no matter how out of the way it is
best get a cup of tea and a packet of hob nobs and have a good read of this
we are not trying to flame you but its disheartening to read your opening post talking of laying on sand and spot bedding
good luck
LLL

Thanks for the advice, and yeah I not familiar with British standards etc etc etc no excuse but I in the Isle of Man and we few good years behind mainland uk but no excuses here, so your suggesting a full solid mortar base then, ok

[Northernhandymaniom]

Hi mate,

always - without fail use preferably a minimum of 100mm of MOT type 1 hardcore, whack it as you go - one load of whacking at 50mm and another at the 100mm height, whack and check your levels are right, check that there is a slight fall (see website - setting out section)

Then proceed with making/ mixing the mortar (6 parts sand to one part cement and a little plasticiser in there too (read the instructions re amount - only a very small amount needed)

- see website for better info (use search box on the website - it works well)

Then proceed with the putting the slabs on your freshly prepared mortar - one at a time. It's easy - but keep your focus on levels and not getting mortar everywhere

Customers do not know best - just say that this is the only way to do it correctly - or it will just subside again in no time. He'll appreciate you taking the lead and showing the confidence to put him right.

Ok pal your right and think I should be straight with him and tell him the proper procedure, it may take more time, materials and money but at the end of the job it will be proper and solid and secure for years to come and he won't be ringing me within a few weeks or months saying things are sinking moving drifting etc, if he doesn't like the truth that it will cost him a few more bob for a good job instead of a quick lay down that will subside within six months then I may have to say I not going to do it it then unless we cement them in
6:1 mix for the solid base, and what about pointing up?

Thanks

[lutonlagerlout]

3:1
thing is it doesnt cost much more to do it right
if he doesnt want a subbase you can chance laying on a full bed of 6:1 straight on the previous,but I wouldnt do it
cheers LLL

[Northernhandymaniom]

Ok interesting reading that link you gave me, I best weigh up the options with the client properly instead of flying in. And not doing it the right way for him as it my rep on the the line too, thanks for the advice

Andy

[local patios and driveway]

read the site andy, take the time and you will learn so much, you can bring your skill set up to date and offer your clients value for money safe in the knowledge you are doing the best standard of work rather than dot and dab.

[Northernhandymaniom]

Ok guys thanks for the tips and advice, have done some reading up over the last few days and feel more confident in the right way to do the job! I have spoken to my paving pal and agreed to hardcore the base and mortar the slabs in then point up afterwards, after proposing this process to the client earlier today, all I got was, well that means more time and money doesn't it? And the base was fine apart from where it got flooded! My response was yes but it for the sake of a few more quid it will be solid for a good few years to come and can't guarantee the longetivity of just laying on a sand base. Anyway we agreed for us to go in tomorrow and handball the 110 flags down the 20 odd winding steps to his garden to get them off his drive then discuss,the options then? And did i forget to mention his garden has only access via 20 odd steps down to the garden so everything has to be carried down!!!!! No barrows or nothing:(. I got off the phone thinking bloody hell I trying to help you out mate and do a good job where he saying just lash it down. If he doesn't agree to the proper way and insists on just lashing it down I will still do it but offer no guarantee on the work lasting! How can I persuade him the better way and shall I offer a guarantee on the proper way to encourage him or what do I say to win him over???

Andy

[lutonlagerlout]

andy
I meet these people a lot of the time, they think they know best,but will be straight on your case if there is a problem
unbound grit sand is only really suitable for council greys
a few bags of cement is only going to cost maybe 40 quid
its his choice
LLL

[TheRockConcreting]

Set a standard for your work, if the job falls below that let it go.