The Brew Cabin

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:37 pm**

I'll preface this by saying that I'll either post some photos (if allowed this is only my first post) or maybe a link if needs be. It's getting a bit dark to do it now (take photos that is, not post).

Anyway, I recently had a small seating area (relucatant to call it a patio as it's small) and path laeding from it laid in riven Indian stone flags. All in there's about 12 sq mt. There's a natural fall in the garden away from the house, far in excess of anything required to shed water and we were happy for the path to follow this rather than terrace the path. Naturally the seating would have to be flatter (and the former seating area was certainly that).

It was laid mainly on top of an area that originally had a council slab style seating area/path and my guess would be that the original installation had been in place for at least 30 years. We lifted the original, used the flags for a shed base, ditched the rest and called the professionals in since I've just had ACL reconstruction and I'm none to clever on my feet at the minute.

I asked prior to starting work what sub base was used and was told 100mm. I had already read a little on here so that seemed OK, though a sub base may have been unnecessary since the area has been well trampled probably for about 150 years (old stone cottage in Derbyshire).

I only caught the end of the job, but basically a membrane of some sort was thrown down, a dryish mortar was thrown down on that and slabs were then laid. I haven't looked how thick it was but Idon't think very, maybe 15-20mm.

Potential issues are:

There certainy wasn't a spirit level to be seen (is this a problem given it's riven?). I would have thought some effort should be made to keep the path/seating level in at least one plane.

Lack of sub base.

Uneven flag spacing (again it's riven, but the differences are quite noticeable).

Not a gread deal of care taken over getting mortar on the face of the slabs (will this stain?). I don't recall seeing it being cleaned off either.

Quite a wet mortar used to point.

Quite large raised lips between various flags.

Thickness of mortar bed.

Wobbles in many flags.

The last flag onto grassed area is literally just laid on top of mortar on the grass (at a downwards incline). I can see that this will broadly speaking stay put for about a week if we're lucky.

I ask because I don't want to go off half cocked and I want to be fully informed. In short I look at it and I'm failrly certain my wife and I did a better job with the shed base (with bloody huge slabs) and I'm positive we could have done a better job of it. That's not to say that what's been done is wrong just that I think I could do it better.

To me it looks like a bodge job thrown down in a hurry, and I have very little confidence in it not requiring remedial work in a very short time. I would expect a professionally laid path/patio to last many years without intervention and I can't see that this will be the case.

Like I say though I'll investigate further tomorrow and take some pics but some initial thoughts would be interesting.

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:44 pm**

where about are you?

have you paid yet, if so dont till its done to your satisfaction

it sounds like they've bodged the hell out of it, where did you find them?

should have been on a subbase, no excuse for lips between riven slabs or laying of grass etc

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:46 pm**

A professionallly installed patio should last as long as....until you get sick of the sight of it and want a new one.

It sounds like a complete cowboy job I am afraid to say. All the issue you have mentioned are pretty serious faults

large lips
mortar on faces of slabs
Loose slabs
no sub base
flags laid on grass

Have you paid the bill yet?

Post some pics but it does sound bad

Posted: **Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:08 pm**

You both have confirmed pretty much what I thought. Though let's reserve judgement until I get some pics up tomorrow.

I should stress it's not all laid on grass, just part of one slab; it will be clearer with photos. I didn't raise the issue of an absent sub base since it says on this site that they aren't always required (though a thicker mortar bed would make more sense to me in that instance).

The contact came from the Derbyshire Trusted Trader scheme and no, I've not paid a bean as yet (I've got wise to that after spending 20 grand on the house last year. It's probably not the right thing to say but I have a bit of a problem with tradesmen in general - I can see why a lot of people DIY (and I would have done this myself but for dodgy knee.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:03 am**

sadly the trusted trader scheme is one you have to sign u p and pay for
I switched off when i read the question"would you do a job for Â£20"
sounds like a balls up TBH
what was the price in the quote?
regards LLL

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:46 am**

Ansi wrote:I should stress it's not all laid on grass, just part of one slab; it will be clearer with photos.

no, I've not paid a bean as yet (I've got wise to that after spending

Any half decent tradesman would not allow one iota of a slab to be laid on grass.

Hold back payment until you fully understand the extent of the bodge.

Pictures please

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:10 am**

A few pics attached. IT's a bit bright out there at the minute so it's hard work to see what's going on but I've adjusted the colour (part of what I do for a living) so you can see as best as possible. I'll maybe retake them later when the sun is the other side of the house but they should give an idea.

Keys are there for scale, I don't have dropsy.

This is the slab laid on mortar on grass. You can just make it out in my shadow.

The edge (no not the guitarist from U2).

Spacing

same again

Until the sun drops a bit it's a little hard to show the uneneness but I'll have a go later today.

To the OP, price was a bit short of Â£600. It's Indian stone, quite thin as it goes but I gather that's the norm now, I doubt there's much of a mortar bed under there and there's certainly no sub base (thought according to this site we'll probably be OK without).

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:38 am**

lutonlagerlout wrote:sadly the trusted trader scheme is one you have to sign u p and pay for
I switched off when i read the question"would you do a job for Â£20"

Yes, I've discovered it doesn't mean anything myself.

We bought this property at auction and spent a small fortune doing it up. The only trademan I would have back from initial work was the plumber (and he's the father-in-law, drove 100miles and stayed with us for two weeks to do the work). They were all recommended too. Others clearly have a different idea of what a good quality job than I do.

We therefore tried a different tack after this and thought that the Trusted Trader scheme would be a good idea. We had probably 14-15 companies look at varous jobs (a few bits and bobs needed to be finsihed off around the house), 3 quoted (the remainder didn't bother getting back).

The roofer did a good job, judgement is reserved on the rest.

The thing is I can see why people DIY. It saves money and I think in the majority of instances a DIYer will do at least as good a job as a "professional" (and I only use the word in terms of charging for the work - not as an indicator of competency).

I picked up a trade building magazine when I was at the merchants the other day and the editorial says something to the effect that it is a minority of tradesmen that tar the rest as being bad.

In my experience rogues/cowboys in buildng trades are the rule, not the exception (though cowboys are far more prevalent than the former). This of course explains why good tradesmen are booked weeks/months in advance. This is probably the wrong forum to say what I have, but as I mentioned at the outset, I have a bit of a problem with the trades at the moment; my experiences have not been good.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:07 pm**

Not the best photos I have ever seen but it does confirm what you said about the grass and the spacers. It looks very shoddy work. It would be good to see more photos.

Â£600 sounds too cheap for 12m2. Was that the only quote you got and did you haggle with them on the price to get it down to Â£600.

Its a bit of a cliche but if you pay peanuts you get monkeys

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:40 pm**

Hi all

I don't know about you lads...but i get sick and tired about reading the same old crap.....

This industry is let down by thousands of cowboys and guys who have been made redundant who a week later set up as landscape specialists etc...This is well known, its even rammed down our throat on TV every week with programs like roage traders etc etc

However, people still fall into the same trap of employing people who have no idea .... and i tell you for why...because most of the time (not in all cases) they are getting a CHEAP price.

It doesn't work like this i'm afraid.... The building industry etc has the reputation it does because people employ cheap, un-trained labour and expect to get a quality job - then when a pigs ear is made of the project, the industry is tarred with a dirty brush.

There are hundreds of quality guys out there.... look at some of the work that the regular contractors post on this web-site... Cookie, Luton etc... these are guys who have spent years and years gaining experience and the knowlege to carry out professional applications... knowledge of levels, materials, design etc etc.... its not something that can be treated dis-respectfully!!! Its also not the kind of work that the average DIYer can do - not in the same class.

I dont mean this disrespectfully - but it is really not that difficult to find quality companies to carry out reputable work.
1. ASK YOUR LOCAL MERCHANT/GARDEN CENTRE/DIY STORE FOR 3 or 4 CARDS - you do not even have to visit - pick the phone up and ask the manager
2. ASK THE 3 or 4 OF THEM FOR A QUOTE
3. LOOK AT THE WORK WITH YOUR OWN EYES
4. ARE THEY PROFESSIONAL - look at the vehicle, the portfolio, the references, Telephone manner, can they give you an address of recent work??
5. COMPARE THE PRICES - is the price on the back of a fag packet or presented with a schedule of agreed work, terms and conditions, spec of sub-base, drainage etc etc

Quality companies will not be cheap - trained solicitors are not cheap - doctors, surveyors, professional people generally...Price reflects their specialist knowlege and years of learning the trade. Good quality landscpare are NO DIFFERENT - they graft hard for the money, battle the elements, hard physical graft.

If a company quote on the monday and can start the next day...does that ring alarm bells??? it should do. Good qulaity companies will be busy, especially this time of year... start to make enquiries after christmas, get booked in early.

To sum up, it is really not that difficult to find good tradesman within the landscaping industry and don't tarr these good professional guys with the same brush when a dogs dinner is created without having done your re-search - NO SYMPATHY If money is an issue, save up and have the job done next year OR talk to the guys about other material options - gravelled areas instead of all paved etc....again, this is where there knowlege comes in to play and can adapt to suit realistic budgets.

Dan

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:23 pm**

Well said Dan.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:55 pm**

danstan wrote:Hi all

I don't know about you lads...but i get sick and tired about reading the same old crap.....

To be fair I have no idea of what is cheap and what isn't. And with respect I get tired of the same "old crap" (your words not mine) from tradesmen good or bad. Given that they seem to have taken (though I haven't paid) in the order order of Â£300 for about 2/3 or days work, I don't consider that to be cheap.

danstan wrote: However, people still fall into the same trap of employing people who have no idea .... and i tell you for why...because most of the time (not in all cases) they are getting a CHEAP price.

Now you're making assumptions. You know what they say about "ASS"ume don't you.

From here:

http://www.pavingexpert.com/york01.htm

it didn't seem wildly different.

If you've read my previous post, you would realise that we asked for more than one quote. Of four that looked, two quoted. One in excess of Â£100 per sq meter, and incumbent.

All other companies either failed to turn up or failed to quote including five dabbers and the like. I'm quite prepared to pay a pair price for a fair day's work and always have been.

Do you think Â£100 per sq metre is fair a price? I'm genuinely interested, because I don't think it is. By my reckoning that's more than most surgeons earn.

I grant that both are skilled jobs, but they're really not in the same category.

danstan wrote: It doesn't work like this i'm afraid.... The building industry etc has the reputation it does because people employ cheap, un-trained labour and expect to get a quality job - then when a pigs ear is made of the project, the industry is tarred with a dirty brush.

I would disagree. I think it's largely due to lack of regulation though regulating an industry with scant regard for qualifications is difficult. We have the same issues in our industry.

danstan wrote: There are hundreds of quality guys out there....

But there are thousands of the other. Needle in a haystack time.

danstan wrote: Its also not the kind of work that the average DIYer can do - not in the same class.

Granted, but "acceptable" is a different standard to professional. WOuld you not agree? The standard of most patios that see in general is pretty poor. Is that something you would agree with?

danstan wrote: I dont mean this disrespectfully - but it is really not that difficult to find quality companies to carry out reputable work.

Yes, we tried that one. Worst tiling job I've ever seen. Had to rip it up and start again. One man's idea of quality is not another's and brown paper bags do change hands at the merchants (as they do in all industries). If I were in my home town I would have no problem finding quality trades; when you live somewhere for 35 years it's not normally difficult but we've been here only three years.

Now if you generally believe your statement I would say that I do mean this depairingly, in that it is not as easy as you think. From your perspective in the trade, it's a doddle. From mine as an outsider it's not (I have relatives in trades in my hown town). I was tempted to say I meant it disdainfully but that would be harsh; you have a blinkered view of the process that we, as mere mortals, have to go through.

danstan wrote: don't tarr these good professional guys with the same brush when a dogs dinner is created without having done your re-search - NO SYMPATHY If money is an issue, save up and have the job done next year OR talk to the guys about other material options - gravelled areas instead of all paved etc....again, this is where there knowlege comes in to play and can adapt to suit realistic budgets.

I spent hours on here checking how it should be done, asked what sub base would be laid etc. Contractor came from "Trusted Traders" site. I fail to see what else I could have done.

I didn't haggle, price was accepted as is. More would have been acceptable, whilst money is always an issue we aren't on a particularly tight budget.

Until the trades do something to clean up, and there are some largely unsuccessful attempts to do this you will all be tarred with the same brush. That's probably not right but it's entirely natural. I've always prefaced everything I've said by saying that this may not be the right place to say it and certainly wouldn't have the gall to say what I have without firstly that it's a generalisation.

I realise there are good out there but it's not straightforward to find them. If you have no sympathy for someone has exercised due dilligence though then I would have to counter with a similar view.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:59 pm**

spot on. this is happened because the poster went for the cheapest price. same old same old. but despite this, you should still expect a decent level of work. should have been double that price, and at 1200 odd quid they could have spent the time on it.

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:07 pm**

It is an american addressing the senate but it still applies here:
http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.html

One day the government will realise that trades are important, that going to university getting a McDegree and using it to get a job stacking shelves isn't the be all end all.

Â£100 per square metre is fair for indian sandstone.
Surgeons don't have to rent hospital space, advertise their services, pay for nurses, pay for tools and machinery, VAT, national insurance for staff, public liability insurance etc That Â£100 a square metre doesn't go directly in the tradesmen pocket. Majority of that goes on paying business related bills.

As for your patio - it is a mess. Did you get a written quote and a contract?

Posted: **Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:17 pm**

local patios and driveways wrote:spot on. this is happened because the poster went for the cheapest price. same old same old. but despite this, you should still expect a decent level of work. should have been double that price, and at 1200 odd quid they could have spent the time on it.

Another one making "ASS"umptions.

Read!

The Brew Cabin

Opinions please - Bodge or not