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Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 1:36 pm
by johnso14
Hi, some advice please.
We have had some grey indian sandstone paving laid, which we now realise has some problems with it - wish we'd read this site first! I suspect that we will have to live with the consequences, but is it worth rectifying any of it:
1. The paving has been spot bedded, and as you predict, as the stone has dried this spring, darker patches are showing through in some but not all places, but do not show when the stone is wet. Is there anything that can be done to alleviate this or will these fade with time and weather?
2. A circle was laid on a ful bed of mortar, but the wrong way up - could these flags be lifted and relayed flipped over or would they be stained from the mortar?
3. We have yet to point up the flags, and given the staining showing through from the bedding, I am concerned that we may end up with staining along all the joints too. As there is a large area to point up we were considering using a dry mix and brushing in, could you recommend the best approach?
Thanks
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 5:31 pm
by lutonlagerlout
1 total fail needs ripping up and redoing
2 probably not ,can they be pointed to look ok?
3 dry mix brushed in is an epic fail
best thing for you to use is romex patio or easy (polymeric mortar) or easipoint (gun injected mortar)
sorry to be the bearer of bad news,where did you find this contractor?
LLL
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:18 pm
by johnso14
lutonlagerlout wrote:1 total fail needs ripping up and redoing
2 probably not ,can they be pointed to look ok?
3 dry mix brushed in is an epic fail
best thing for you to use is romex patio or easy (polymeric mortar) or easipoint (gun injected mortar)
sorry to be the bearer of bad news,where did you find this contractor?
LLL
Yes I was afraid that would be your answer.
1. I understand the problems with spot bedding your site discusses, purely from a cosmetic point of view am I right in thinking that the staining won't fade or become less obvious with time?
We have had 60 sq m laid, so ripping it all up and relaying isn't really an option at the moment. We might be able to tackle it in parts in the future.
2. The circle would look ok when pointed, but because the gaps are V shaped, we have gaps of nearly 6 cm in places - would the grouting compounds you mention be Ok in such wide gaps?
3. I am assuming that these are all pretty expensive compared to sand/cement, and with 60m to point up its going to cost a lot. Given we might be ripping parts up in the future, is there a more cost effective option that would get us by (without causing the staining)?
Thanks very much for your help - really wish I'd done some research first, but hey hum, had a good builder I trusted. Live and learn 
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:29 pm
by Carberry
Can you not call the builder back to get it relaid properly or get a refund because your patio isn't fit for purpose?
Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:41 pm
by lutonlagerlout
the staining from the spot bedding may fade in time,without seeing it its hard to say
potentially if you use easipoint and let it flow into the voids under the slabs it may help achieve equal loading
you could also try a funnel and some grout to try and get some fluid cement mixture into the voids under the flags
all a bit half arsed TBH
sadly i also know *good* builders who do exactly the mistakes you have described
I lose out on jobs to them because they are cheaper
easipoint costs about £25 a bag and a bag does roughly 7M2 of pointing so you would need 9 bags plus a gun £270
a decent bloke would point that in a day with a labourer
to do it the normal way would take 2 maybe 2.5 days for the same 2 blokes
I am guessing you just need to make the best of a bad situation
If the flags arent rocking *yet* i would try and get some grout underneath them,CARE needs to be taken though
LLL
Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:35 am
by johnso14
lutonlagerlout wrote:the staining from the spot bedding may fade in time,without seeing it its hard to say
potentially if you use easipoint and let it flow into the voids under the slabs it may help achieve equal loading
you could also try a funnel and some grout to try and get some fluid cement mixture into the voids under the flags
all a bit half arsed TBH
sadly i also know *good* builders who do exactly the mistakes you have described
I lose out on jobs to them because they are cheaper
easipoint costs about £25 a bag and a bag does roughly 7M2 of pointing so you would need 9 bags plus a gun £270
a decent bloke would point that in a day with a labourer
to do it the normal way would take 2 maybe 2.5 days for the same 2 blokes
I am guessing you just need to make the best of a bad situation
If the flags arent rocking *yet* i would try and get some grout underneath them,CARE needs to be taken though
LLL
Hi LLL
I will have a good think about the best option for us at this point, but your response really helps.
I will take some photos and email them to you - is it the email address on the 'query' page?
If we use easipoint to try and get under the flags, am i right in thinking that we will need more than 9 bags you mention?
Thanks again for your help.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:14 pm
by London Stone Paving
Really feel for you. It sounds like a real bodge job
1. email the photos to me and I will post them: steven@londonstone.com
2. What have your builders said about the situation? Can you not get them back and see what they are willing to put right. If they are a decent company they should be willing to something for you
3. LLL does not mean use Easipoint to get under the flags. He means a really wet mortar (virtually liquid) that you can pour under the slabs to try and fill the voids. You can then use Easipoint to point the gaps after. You mentioned that some of the gaps were up to 60mm. This is going to be very expensive to use Easipoint for joints of this size
4. Get the photos posted and we should be able to give you a full apraisal of all the issues. You then need to go back to your builder and see what he is willing to do
Good luck
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:29 pm
by London Stone Paving
This is the email I received from Neera
Hi Steve,
I really appreciate everyones advice on this. I have attached some photos to give you an idea of what I mean. In most places we haven't any staining yet come through or it is very light.
The effloresence I know I can scrub off, but do you think the general staining will fade with time or weathering?
I have been talking to my builder about this, but I think I need to understand what the long term issues are likely to be before I can agree an arrangement with him on this. I can live with stains if they will fade over time, and I am not keen on ripping it all up at this stage if we can help it..
I have had someone to look at it and they say that once sealed and grouted more staining is unlikely to occur, as it is to do with the amount of water getting underneath, and that we are best grouting it all in (2:1 mix mortar has been suggested), waiting to see if the staining fades. If not just re-lay those patches, which isn't much at the mo.
Thanks again so much for your help
Neera Johnson
These are the photos of the job
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:05 pm
by lutonlagerlout
OMG
WTF is all the cack in the joints?
spot bedding for the fail neera
1 hoover out all that rubbish in the joints
2 try and grout under the flags
3 use easipoint to point them
huge huge fail neera
LLL
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:06 pm
by lutonlagerlout
ps some flags seem to be upside down
send your *builder* on here for a bollockin'
LLL
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:59 pm
by Al Jardin
Stains look like eflorescense. Should wash off with water & stiff broom. I've had this with modak rose using sand from hertfordshire. On a full bed though.
Al
Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 pm
by London Stone Paving
Could be a real pain trying to get grout under those flags bearing in mind they have beeen laid upside down. LLL is it a case of pouring liquid groud into the gaps until they will take no more?
Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 12:11 am
by rab1
on lll behalf yes, pour a strong cement mix in and hope for the best :p