Frost damage to indian paving - Problems with indian

[topgrafter2007]

recently laid 2 driveways, 1 all in indian paving and 1 in grey concrete 2x2 flags. both drives were laid using recycled sand or dust as we call it. never had problems over last 3 years since ive been using this sand! but since the hard frosts of last 2 months.... the indian paving seems to have expanded to the point where its risen out of the ground, blown all the pointing and moved ajacent flags up to an inch!! but its only happend to the indian, all other flags seem ok. the sand underneath hasnt even set despite 4 to 1 mix! could it be the natural stone cannot cope with prolonged hard frost? or allows water thru possibly carrying sum mineral that causes cement to fail? ive spoke to several other landscapers locally and all have had same problems on drives laid in last 3 months... but only in indian paving!

[exoticpete]

What was the temp when the paving was laid... was there any frost proofer added to mix and was the paving protected from the frost while it was going off..?

[topgrafter2007]

the drive where the indian was laid as inserts 10x6 size and raised out of the ground was laid last sept! so no frostproofer. other drive was nov and cold but we had the unexpected minus 5s 10days after tho. still no frost proofer added. been puting it in everything since! drive wasnt covered tho as i find the pointing dosnt set proper if the air dosnt get to it.. catch 22! other lads that have had problems put frostproofer in and still had same probs tho!!

[exoticpete]

Am a little worried as i have been using recycled sand also but as yet no problems..
Anybody got any clues what is happening..?

[topgrafter2007]

everyone i know locally uses recycled sand as it is cost effective and like you ive been using for last 4 yr, prob laid over 5000 flags on it easily. yet only had probs after this last cold spell and 95%of the probs seem to be when indian is laid on them. help....

[Tony McC]

There's Indian Sandstone and then there's Indian Sandstone. Some of the "bargains" are little better than ballast. I've seen stone that you can crush between forefinger and thumb, and stone that delaminates as soon as it gets wet, but I've not seen stone that grows....yet!

In theory, there shouldn't be a problem with the recycled sand, but then there's recycled sand and there's recycled sand: it all depends on what the source material was. Some of the recycled sands are based on glass, but too many seem to be based on crushed concrete and brick, which is a recipe ripe for expansion when wet.

Many years ago, last century even, I was talked into using a mix of crushed brick and cinder as laying course for a patio is a posh bit of Wilmslow, and it was a disaster. It was claggy when wet, it stuck like the proverbial to a blanket when it got onto the very expensive flags, and it swelled-up, only to shrink again when the weather picked up.

The supplier swore it was just a rogue batch, and that they'd never had any other problems of that type, but for the 2 quid per tonne it saved, compared to genuine Zone 2 sand, I decided the risk wasn't worth it, and so we never used it again. However, it was used beneath a neighbour's block paved drive, apparently, and the gang that had laid it fled the scene rather than attempt to put it right. We were dragged in to 'advise', but the neighbour didn't like the advice to rip it up and start again, so it was left in what can only be referred to as a "distressed state".

Our original client, a reasonably wealthy builder and developer in S. Manchester, told me some years later that it the neighbour had been obliged to sell up and move about six months after I'd taken a look at the drive, and had difficulty getting anyone interested in buying it from him, so the drive was dug out and what my client described as a "lick of blacktop" was thrown down as a sop to the eventual purchaser.

Anyway: back to your plight. I'd have a look at what was in that recycled sand first of all.

[topgrafter2007]

the recycled sand is god only knows what.... mostly concrete, brick, sand and no doubt some soil. every person i no round here uses it tho! its obviuosly ok for average temps but not what weve had recently tho ive been working for myself for 4 yrs now and always prided meself in doing a good job and now im learning a hard lessson through either no fault of my own or lack of experience? hard to get work by price when people dont want to pay for good quality materials, one of the jobs was for a councilor who,s being great about it thank god!

[topgrafter2007]

as for the stone that grows.... 350 concrete flags, 600 blockpavers, and yet the only thing thats moved is the indian paving. its bellied up and crushed all the surrounding pointing! it seems to have expanded and found the weakest root which was upwards due to being surrounded by the concrete flags. hard to believe i no. got some photo,s of it. will try put them on when i can. its got me for sure tho

[oioisonnyboy]

I would put my money on sand troubles as well.

down here in Kent you can get recycled "Sharp" sand that is crusher fines from the production of type one or other graded stuff. this comes out of a quarry where all they quarry and crush is kentish ragstone. (this means the stone is good stuff even when it has been pi55ing hard for a week and everyone elses stockpile is mud). It can be called recycled even though it is quarried, because it is a by product of crushing.

I think this may be what you have had by the sound of it or something similar, but becuase it was not all rock there may be some "Non agrillaceous" stuff in there hence the expanding in wet weather. I would imagine this could be probably soil or something like crushed brick rubble which could take up the water and expand.

might be worth asking the supplier for a bit of spec on the material to see what exactly goes in it...and what other materials they are crushing

just my 2p worth

[topgrafter2007]

thanx for your views guys... im thinking the sands the culprit and maybe the indian pavings allowing more moisture through to the sand underneath hence why its the areas most affected?? concrete flags seem ok.

[lutonlagerlout]

i dont want to be a killjoy,but i think you will find that if you must use stone and/or slabs on a driveway its recommended to lay them on 100mm of concrete on minimum 150 mm of type 1 base.

never seen recycled sand yet,in comparison to muck away sand/ballast/aggregate is a relatively cheap part of the job.

where abouts are you topgrafter?

Its a bad feeling when you have done your bollox on a job (my term for put a lot of effort in) and it goes pear shaped.

good luck

LLL

[topgrafter2007]

never seen flags laid on concrete! we usually dig out then 100mm crusher then flags laid on full bed of sand/grit cement. if ground really bad then we use geotex fabric under crusha. were based in blackpool area.

[TheVictorianCobbleCo]

Is it possible that this is a combination of extraordinary porous sandstone (poorer quality) allowing excessive moisture in to the substrate, which when frozen, creates ice within the substrate, expands, and causes the noticed movement. It has to be extraeneous, as the coefficient of expansion for the substrate in any other condition is going to be extremely small.

[msh paving]

WOW, where did all them big words come from......

[lutonlagerlout]

never seen flags laid on concrete! we usually dig out then 100mm crusher then flags laid on full bed of sand/grit cement. if ground really bad then we use geotex fabric under crusha. were based in blackpool area.

i know builders in blackpool and i know its a competitive place to work,however grit sand /cement wont take power steering loading over a period of time
have to say i like those funky pier caps in blackpool
very nice
LLL