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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:19 pm
by sainthalo
i have a problem as you can see in the attached pictures, we very recently had a 2.4m circle patio in indian sandstone laid and we have noticed when it rains the water sits in the centre causing a puddle of 1m which sits there seemingly forever.
we have already paid the chaps £200 to lay it and they will be coming back to do two lawns where they will probably ask for £200 again. they have told us not to walk on the sandstone until monday till it sets.
our original contractor let us down so we went with these last minute and i think they have cut corners somewhere.
What is likely to have gone wrong and what is the likely solution in the experience of paving experts?
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:50 pm
by Pablo
Honestly the only solution is to relay it with a better fall and a spirit level that isn't bent. The bank behind should have been dealt with before the circle though as it's likely to damage the paving and pointing when you excavate it. Being paid on a daily basis and not on an agreed price with percentage installments is going to end in tears as it's the stuff of fly by nights and cowboys. Give us some more details on costs and whats being done and in what order etc.
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:58 pm
by sainthalo
Hi, the bank behind needs cutting back a little so a wall can be built. Unfortunately the calculations were slightly off.
The order of work is:
1) Dig out
2) Lay paving
3) Build Circular brick wall and steps each side up to lawn
4) lay lawn/planting
This was done to ensure the circle and wall linged up perfectly.
We have a seperate bricklayer and labourer and paver.
Unfortunately the paver we booked let us down and cancelled due to weather and said he would be busy on a big job. He had asked £300 labour and said he would need 3 days.
We managed to find someone else at short notice and they wanted £200. They then asked for £240 on the day stating they had to spread 2T of grit instead of 1T as we had removed too much soil (we paid for all materials and they arrived within 30 minutes). They also on the day sent us out to hire them a "whacker" claiming their's was stolen. Even though that cost us time and money they had asked for the extra £40 but were politely told no. They have been paid £200 and took one day and an hour the next morning.
They are due back to lay turf on front and back lawns.
In the meantime the brickie has been round to check and has said he could try and grind out the middle stone and lay it higher. Im not sure whether to let him do this or just let the pavers back to do the turf and then point out the problem to them and ask them to sort it failing which they will not be paid for the turfing until sorting the paving.
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:38 pm
by Tony McC
So, these eejits built-up levels using sand rather than sub-base material, wanted 40 quid extra for so doing, and expected the client to hire a plate compactor for them. My cowboy detector is ring-a-ding-dinging!
No-one in their right mind would lay the paving before building the retaining wall. It is the simplest of tasks to build a wall that will accurately surround a paved circle - after all, how difficult is it to mark out a circle?
And a day plus and hour for two eejits to lay a two-ring circle with block edging? There's no more than four man-hours work there, unless you take time off to get a bucket of oats for the horses!
And after all that, it's not even right! I would be asking for my 200 quid back. As Pablo says, the only way to fix it is to take it up and re-lay it to the correct falls and levels. It won't be easy to salvage the stone from all that mortar. 
Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:50 pm
by Pablo
Personally I wouldn't let them do anymore work they sound like Idiots. However if you feel you want them to continue then you need to agree with them what needs done to fix everything whats the overall cost going to be including hidden extras and more professional method of payment. If you pay by cheque then you have some evidence that they actually were there so you can take them to court. Keep it above board no cash or funny business protect yourself. The work needs to be done in the following order. 1. Lift paving 2. Excavate bank to allow for width of wall/ footing and drainage. 3.reinstall paving checking that sub base is properly consolidated and paving is laid on a suitable sand/cement mortar with correct pointing. 4. Build wall and backfill including drainage. Cover paving with plastic to prevent any staining. 5. Turf and plant. Footings should be installed before paving is relaid as the footing width will mean the paving should overlap it.
You really should get a proffesional landscaper to do this though. Check previous work agree on costs get a few quotes etc and don't expect them to start in 30mins time. Good luck.
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:28 pm
by sainthalo
How likely is it the circle will get damaged by lifting it up and what is the best way of getting it out? It was expensive!
I am now thinking of paying someone else to sort out the circle paving problem and getting a bill, calling in the pavers to to do the turfing and then when they ask for their money giving them the bill from whoever sorts out their mess and paying them the difference if any. they wont be happy and will probably make plenty of noise but its the only way to sort out their mess without it costing me or taking them to court. They were paid cash, didnt give a receipt saying they didnt have anything with them. I think the signs are they would not sort it out/are not capable of sorting it and would not give a refund - we will have to get the money back either via court or this method of getting them to lay the lawn (they cant really mess that up i guess) and offestting the cost. While I cant trust them on the paving i think they cant really get a lawn wrong.
I did tell them to make sure the path/circle was draining away and we bought aco's as well for them - their response "we do this everyday" - i hope thats not true.
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:41 pm
by Dave_L
You have too many cooks in the kitchen!
Persoanlly I'd not have them back on site whatsoever and put the £200 down to bad experience.
As Pablo says, get some quotes and go from there.
As soon as they want paying in cash, the old alarm bells should start ringing.
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:55 pm
by sainthalo
Yes looks like too many cooks!
My father is also saying forget the £200 and he doesnt want them back. Apparently the bricklayer has said he might be able to sort it by grinding out the mortar and lifting the middle stone of the circle and laying it higher?
Unfortunately with the cost of the circle it might be a lot more than £200 and who knows if the brickie can sort it out.
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:46 pm
by DeckmanAdam
Hello there,
From looking at the picture i would say that"grinding out the middle stone" will not really help as the first ring seems to be dipping towards the middle.
If your careful with the slabs, prize them up gently from the outside then clean the edges carefully you should be fine to start again with that one.
I have to agree that the wall should be built first and then the patio laid, if it is one firm doing the whole lot this should'nt be a problem at all.
I would suggest not having them back to do the lawn maybe make them come along thinking they are going to then discuss the paving issue but if they can do this with the paving they would definatly cut corners with the turf i think.
All the best.
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:04 pm
by Rich H
A two ring circle and edging and pointing should take 4 hours as Tony says. Lift the whole thing, put it to one side (you shouldn't damage it) and forget about it until the wall is built. I've made the mistake of putting up walls after the paving. You go to enormous lengths to keep the paving clean which could have been avoided if you had just done things in the right order.
1) Most landscapers don't want to be paid a day rate, they want to be paid for the job from start to finish.
2) All professionals either have their own tools or rent specific ones for specific jobs. They don't get clients to supply them.