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Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:31 pm
by adamp10
Hi,
I have a question regarding laying Marshall's Haworth Moor natural stone slabs.
I am replacing my current patio, which is Saxon paving layed on a semi-dry mortar mix, with no hardcore sub-base.
I was wondering if I could lay the Haworth Moor slabs the same way. From reading the information on this site, this seems to be the recommended approach, using individual bedding.
However, the advice from Marshalls is that the natural stone should be layed on a wet mortar mix with a sub-base of hardcore. Having spoken to a number of builders, they have also said they would lay them on a concrete base, some saying they would have the hardcore sub-base and others saying they wouldn't. Their reasoning is that it is more stable and will not start to rock after a while.
I'm a bit confused as to what I should do so any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:01 pm
by Tony McC
What do you really think I'm going to say? How likely do you think it is that I'll suddenty say the advice I give on the main website is bollocks and you ought to use such-and-such a method?
My advice is clear: it's up to you whether you choose to follow it or not.
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:40 pm
by adamp10
Fair enough, it was an innocent enough query - I have little experience with laying patios so wasn't totally clear about the advice given on the web site, I just needed clarification. Especially with all the conflicting opinions I've been getting from different people.
Anyway, I had assumed that posting a question here was directed at anyone on this forum who could give advice, not just the moderator, but maybe I misunderstood.
Any helpful advice(from anyone) would still be much appreciated.
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:09 pm
by mouldmaker
I'd advise listening to Tony.
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:59 pm
by adamp10
Having spoken to quite a number of people with experience of laying these particular stones, they all advise that they should be layed on a full bed of wet mortar. All have said that laying on a semi-dry mix as advised on this site would be unsatisfactory.
I am sure that most of the information on the web site is accurate and extremely helpful, however it appears that some people on this forum blindly trust all the advice given on the site, and that's just as bad as putting your faith in some random builder you've picked out of the yellow pages.
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:00 pm
by Suggers
Well then, go your own way.........
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:01 am
by mouldmaker
The word 'petulent' springs to mind.
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:36 am
by adamp10
I didn't expect anything less than these sort of responses - people on here seem to worship Tony in a disturbingly unhealthy way(like me they are obviously clueless).
I still stand by what I say about laying Haworth Moor natural stones. Admittedly I don't have much knowledge so that is why I have seeked out opinions and advice from various people who have experience, including this site(which I do think in general is very good).
Every recommendation I have had for laying these particular stone is to lay on a bed of wet mortar, and all have said laying on a semi-dry mix would be unsatisfactory. Reasons given include varying thickness of the stones, that some of the stones are quite small and light, and they are not completely flat on either side.
Marshalls themselves also state that you should not consider laying them on a semi-dry mix, although I don't know what people think of the advice Marshalls give.
Anyhow, as people have said, you have to make your own decision based on the advice you receive and that's pretty easy to do in this case.
I've received a lot of helpful and informative advice from people, but on this site just stroppy remarks and comments that I should not be asking questions about things which are so 'obviously' described on the main site.
I'll expect more of the same in any further responses to this thread.
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:17 am
by Tony McC
So: even though you're obviously a bit of a twonk, have any of these "sources" explained in any detail why a semi-dry bed is not satisfactory for laying natural stone paving? If you can be arsed to check previous posts on this topic, and read the rest of the website, you'll find that, on several occasions I've gone into great detail about why I believe my working methods are best. I dont just make bold statements: I back them up with explanations and experience.
How does the water content of a mortar interact with the thickness of the stone? Why is a wet mortar better for flags with uneven faces? The sources you seem to prefer don't seem to have explained that to you, wheas I can explain in great detail exactly why a semi-dry bed is superior, and how the uneveness, size, lightness(sic), type of material or what bloody colour of socks you're wearing makes NO difference to the suitability of the technique.
And exactly where do Marshalls state that "you should not consider laying (Haworth Moor) on a semi-dry mix"? I'm a fairly avid reader of every paving publication, but I don't recall seeing that.
I've been laying flags for close on 40 years. Me dad's into his 60th year of laying flags. Both of us lay natural stone flags on semi-dry. It works for us, and we've somehow managed to eke out a living doing it that way. There are other ways, and if they work for you, then that's fine, but when asked what's my advice, I always say the same thing. Why do you have a problem with that?
Just because you've allegedly spoken to a "builder" (not a paving specialist or streetmason, I notice) you seem to expect I should "come clean" and admit I've been wrong all this time?
You've no idea, have you? Off you go: lay your flags following the advice given to you by all these other "sources", and good luck to you. There are none so blind as those that will not see...
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:23 pm
by mouldmaker
I've been manufacturing paving under various guises for over 20 years now, both here and in the USA, and can't fault Tony's advice. In fact rather than reinvent the wheel and write up my own laying guidelines, I point customers to this site and recommend it on my own website.
I wouldn't risk my own reputation if I thought Tony rode a horse called Trigger.
I fail to see how someone can, in the post, say "I know sod-all about it" and "I know better".
Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:20 pm
by adamp10
Wasn't going to bother my arse with this anymore but after Tony's last post thought I should give some response.
Before going into anything else, Tony says I'm a bit of a 'twonk' - we can start trading insults if that's the way you want it you arrogant twat. We can bring this dicussion right down to any level you want.
You ask me why I've got a problem with your advice - I don't have a problem with it at all, I've never started to slag you off and claim what you're saying is crap.
The people I've been speaking to(who ARE incidentally paving specialists and people who have been doing this as long as you), have all went into detail about why a semi-dry mix is not as good for this stone. I explained this in a previous post. If you're really doubting my 'sources' have little knowledge or experience then I'm happy to give you their names and company names if you want and you can judge if they're cowboys or not.
As far as Marshalls are concerned, I have received advice from them and they've also sent me instructions on how this stone should be layed. Easy enough to contact them and find out what they say - you'll find I'm not making this up.
What I'm confused about most here is the allegation that I'm trying to get at Tony for some reason. Tony thinks that I'm trying to get him to "come clean". I don't care who knows best about this or that, I just want to work out what the best way to do this is, against conflicting advice.
This thread has evolved from a simple query to a slanging match. I'm wondering why - I looked at my original question again to see if I said something that might have caused offence and I honestly can't see why, other than the 'offence' of questioning something 'clearly' described on the web site. Tony's initial reaction was obnoxious and arrogant, and totally inappropriate.
On the contrary the other people who I've spoken to have been more than helpful, and when I've questioned what they say they've not taken offence, they've taken time to explain the pros and cons of different methods. This is in contrast to Tony, although for some reason he seems to think it's the other way round.
I don't care who's right or wrong, but maybe Tony is superior to all others because he's created a noddy website and written a book about it. I must admit, it was completely stupid of me to come on here and ask a question in ignorance, I should have read his book first.
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:07 pm
by Tony McC
I was wrong in claiming you were "a bit of a twonk". You are a complete twonk.
You posted a message stating you'd had connflicting advice from other sources and wanted clarification. I pointed out that I stand by my advice and it's up to you whether you follow it or not. You then started prattling on about "a number of people" who recommended a wet bed. Fine - go ahead an lay on a wet bed. I promise I won't lose any sleep over it, but I will not change my opinion of what I consider to be the best method.
You seem to want to pursue this until I change my opinion: it's not going to happen. Accept that, as I have aceepted that you want to follow the advice of others.
As Suggers said way back "Well, go your own way..."
Now piss off