Page 1 of 1
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:08 pm
by valeria
Hi, can anyone give me advice, In january this year new pic's driveway installed, 5 month's later 12ft crack appeared plus smaller crack's,now cobblestone edges are chipping off, showing plain colour concrete, installer's not that helpful, would like advice or second opinion on this installation, how do i find someone, i live in Harlow, Essex. Thank you Valeria
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:22 pm
by Tony McC
I know it's no consolation, but I hear this kind of tale two or three times a week and it's very difficult to offer any advice at all. The work should be assessed, but who would be deemed competent? The big suppliers are reluctant to get involved, and other contractors are presumed to be naturally biased. Wjhat usually happen is a civil engineer or concrete technician is asked to assess the work, and they usually have no experience of the specific requirements of the residential driveway market, which has very different requirements to their usual place of work; the larger building sites up and down the country.
All I can suggest is that you contact your local trading standards office and ask if they have a local assessor they can suggest. I have assessed a few such driveways on behalf of Warrington/Cheshire Trading Standards and I know there are a few other lads in various parts of the country that offer the same sort of service, so you might just be lucky enough to have one in or near Harlow.
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:42 pm
by valeria
Hi Toni, Thank you for your advice, & promt reply, i will be getting intouch with trading standard's,i will let you know how i get on. Thank's again, Valeria
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:37 pm
by valeria
Hi Toni, sorry, but one more question, my installer speak's of hairline crack's, but i see it as a 12ft crack, hardly hairline, it is very noticable, can you tell me the difference. Thanks again Valeria
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:41 pm
by Tony McC
Hairline cracks are the single most common complaint I hear about PIC. One installer who likes to thinl they are more technically competent than others, refers to them as "micro-fissures", although the 6 metre long "fissure" I examined in one of their installations was hardly "micro".
When concrete is curing, the water content is chemically combined with the cement in a reaction known as hydration. On the surface of the pour, water can also be lost due to evaporation, and this comparative 'dryness' can cause the freshly hydrated matrix (the mix of sands and cement) to shrink slightly as water is driven off by evaporation. This shrinkage can result in small micro-fissures or hairline cracks in the surface.
There are ways and means of reducing the risk of surface cracks: curing membranes, maintaining a high humidity, covering with straw, keeping a sunshade over the fresh concrete, misting with additional water...there are dozens of strategies used by competent concrete installers. The sad thing is that too many of the PIC installers know sweet FA about these techniques. They've attended a one-day training scheme, watched a few videos, had a go at imprinting a 2 square metre trial patch, and been impressed with the potential profitability. They often have no background in the concrete or groundworks trades, and so fail to understand the nuances involved in creating a good finish on a concrete slab.
Most 'hairline cracks' are just that: short shallow fissures in the surface that will fill with dust and detritus in next to no time. They are rarely more than a few millimetres deep, a millimetres or two in width at most, and shouldn't be more than a few centimetres in length. Any cracks exceeding these dimensions are probably not hairline cracks.
Structurally speaking, genuine hairline cracks are of no great concern. Their presence doen't indicate the whole drive is about to crack and crumble beneath your feet. However, this is a decorative concrete surface, not a utilitarian slab, and being told there is no immediate structural problem is no real comfort. You chose PIC because you wanted summat that looked pretty, something that is attractive and capable of carrying the family cars.
This is what galls me. When these cases come before a court, the installers (or their legal ferrets) argue that the cracks are immaterial, that they are irrelevant, that the drive is, to all intents and purposes, fit for use. I can't argue that it's not. However, if you had wanted a concrete drive that was merely strong enough to take vehicles, you could have had aplain concrete slab for a third of the price. You wanted summat decorative, and for this, you paid a premium. What you have is an expensive concrete instalation that is supposed to be attractive but is actually flawed. The surface is crazed and, to your eyes, this detracts from the decorative finish you paid for. Time and time again, the installers argue on structural grounds while the actual reason for your claim is aesthetic. The installers legal team bamboozle the court with technical information which is, in my opinion, irrelevant: the claim is not that the drive is structurally flawed, but that it does not meet the decorative standard you were led to believe was achievable.
This is when the second favourite PIC excuse gets trundled out. "Your expectations were too high", say the PIC lawyers. "This is, after all, concrete, and you somehow expected the actual look of, say, London Cobbles, Ashlar Stone, or whatever."
Who presented such 'expectations' to you? Who was it that, when they were selling you the damned driveway, told you that it would be such-and-such a colour, that it would look just like London Cobbles, that it would be maintenance free....why: it was the installers, wasn't it!
When properly prepared and installed, PIC is a perfectly good surface, but very few are actually properly prepared and installed. Far too many are laid without a damp membrane, or are left to dry out in the baking sun, or are finished with the wrong colour release, and then the installers start crying that it's not their fault, and that it's physically impossible to change the colour, or eliminate the cracks now that the concrete has cured. I have no sympathy whatsoever with this attitude. There are ways and means of ensuring these problems don't occur, and if the installers can't be arsed to use the correct techniques, then they can't be allowed to fob off the client when the work inevitably goes wrong.
End of rant - back to your driveway. At 12 feet in length, this can not be described as a "hairline" crack. Do you know anyone with hair trailing 12 feet behind them? You need to photo these cracks, with a tape measure in shot for scale, and present them to Trading Standards. If and when you get an independent assessor to inspect the drive, you need to ensure he/she documents and photos each of the cracks, measuring them in length, width, and, if necessary, in depth.
As I said earlier, anything over a few centimetres is NOT a hairline crack.
Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:57 pm
by valeria
Hi Toni, Thank's again for your promt reply, & it's the most helpful & informative information i have had & will help a great deal to understand, what's going on with my drive, wish i had this information before installation,but that's hindsight & we know about that,i will follow recommendation's as to the trading standard's & let you know how thing's turn out.
Thank's again Valeria
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:05 pm
by valeria
Hi Tony,
I am still not happy with my pics driveway, and viewing people's comments on the forum, I would like to express, my opinion, of pics. which is, i would not reccomend it for the following reasons, (unless you are a gambler), you possibly cannot repair many fault's to client's satisfaction,due to colour & method of repair, any chipping off of inprinted patterns can only have a dab of colour, & re-seal the guarantee's company's give are very loose, biass their way, after sales & customer care was poor. There maybe good installer's out there, i chose a well known & nation wide installer, but still fault's occured. Hope this information may help anyone to avoid disappointment.
Valeria
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:26 am
by Tony McC
I know several 'players' in the PIC industry think I have a bias against their product because I make so many negative comments, but the truth isp that I only comment on bad work and bad practice when bad work and bad ractice are put before me, and it's an undeniable fact that this website, via emails, messages posted here, and phone calls, receives more complaints regarding PIC than any other form of paving. Further: given that it is nowhere near the most popular form of paving used in Britain and Ireland, the level of dissatisfaction per 1,000 installations is worryingly high.
Having said that, I readily admit there are good contractors working in the PIC industry, and it's been my pleasure to watch some of them work, but unless they act soon to improve the reputation of their industry, it really will go the same way as stone cladding and asbestos roofs. When you hear of experiences such as Valeria's it doesn't inspire confidence, does it?
In all the years the Brew Cabin has been open (coming up fo 5 years later this month!) we've never (as far as I can remember) had a PIC installer come and tell us how relatively common defects, such as those described by Valeria, can be corrected to the total satisfaction of the client. I know they read these posts - some of them phone me and give me a mouthful of abuse when I disparage a particular practice - but none of them have been willing to stick their neck out and defend their industry.
Does anyone working in PIC want to tell Valeria why it's wrong to expect a decent job in exchange for the not inconsiderable sum of money handed over?