Pic... when is an install a good intall - Advice needed for a frustrated customer

[drivememad]

Hi there, I have just had PIC installed on a path around the back of my house and on a patio area 60sqmtrs in total.
I am not happy with the job but I have been told that I should be and I am now being threatened for payment.
Colour...we agreed on a very light grey with a charcoal RA..the colour CSH was silver. The install is a bluey colour and the shade is more like the darker platinum colour. The company agreed it was not like the colour we wanted and have attempted to lighten it. They have now said tough as the colour wasnt specified on the contract. We also have a patch a mtr sq where they have made attempts to lighten further which looks completely different to the rest - it now has less of a riven look and the charcoal has disappeared. We also have two separate patches of what looks like splashes which are embedded in the concrete. They say they have taken off and reaplied the sealer and it has not removed them and there is nothing that they can do, we should be happy with the job and they now want payment. They have made attempts to clean the grey concrete that has splattered on the surrounding (brand new) garden walls and repair what they call spits, but we had to ask them to do this (the remark I got was well what do you expect its concrete). Are we fighting a losing battle, we have come to the conclusion that we aren't going to get the colour we wanted, but what about that patch and those splashes. Are we being fobbed off?? PS. If we don't pay by Monday, they are coming round to smash up the job - all we want is a good job. Any advice on our next move would be really appreciated or should we just give in and pay??

[kerbie]

Sounds like a job for a solictor, trading standards or citizens advise . Please keep all information on the project and letters they sent you. ps it is criminal damage if they come on to your property and smash up the work with out coming to some arrangement over payment

[Tony McC]

Report them to Trading Standards, especially the threats to damage your property. Take photos of absolutely everything, no matter how minor. Make a list of every defect, write to the company informing them that you will pay when the work is complete to your satisfaction and that you look forward to receiving a written copy of their remedial strategy. Inform them that if they enter onto your property without your permission, you will inform the police. Get legal advice NOW!

Which firm did this work? If you don't want to reveal their name in a public forum, send me a PM using the buttion at the bottom of this message.

[Joe K]

I have had a similar experience with a PIC installation. Had a patio and pathway leading to another patio, done in the back garden. When they were laying the concrete, part of the concrete dried out before they could apply the base or do the patterns, so they finished one part of it, a few days later dug out the part that had dried, and two weeks later re-laid that section and applied the sealer. The colour tone was different between the two sections - but they said give it ime to blend in. A few weeks later I noticed some "White" patches throughout the whole area. On their website they say this may be caused by the salts. I contacted them and eventually they sent someone out. The guy disagreed that the colours was different...when I told him about the section they re-laid he changed his mind. Anyway, the "White" patches look more concrete coloured "patches" where the sealer was not aplied correctly, rather than salts having an effect on the work. They re-sealed part of the patio and I'm still arguing with them about re-sealing the rest.

I had the job done not long ago and paid enough but am really pi$$ed off with the quality and their attitude. Am I best to contact trading standards, or get legal advice? I have some pictures of the areas affected. Cheers.

[mouldmaker]

I'm curious as to whether anyone has ever had a good experience with PIC?

At my last company we had an installer locally with a similar name, and were constantly receiving complaints aimed at them. Worse was when they appeared on BBC Watchdog - we had a stream of phone calls for about 3 weeks after!

[Tony McC]

That company you mention, Mike, has recently re-incarnated itself for the umpteenth time and is busy reclaiming its previous reputation around these parts.

I do try to be fair to PIC but I hear more complaints about PIC jobs gone bad than all other forms of paving put together, and I've now come to the conclusion that it's not so much a problem of a larger percentage of PIC jobs going tits-up, but that it's damned near impossible to rectify any problems that do arise, and far too many of the installers know sweet FA about concrete technology or customer care.

I know for a fact that some of the suppliers and a handful of the more professional companies are working their 'nads off to improve the image of the trade, but there are so many eejits out there that see concrete costing 20 quid per matre being flogged for 70 quid per metre and so the trade attracts too many of the "wrong types". This isn't helped by a small number of allegedly "national" companies that have lamentable track records for crap installations, abusive customer relations and a highly litigious approach to getting their money from the poor sods they've conned.

I saw a job last week, installed by one of the very largest national PIC contractors, and it would make you cry. It is truly appalling and just how this company has the nerve to expect payment is beyond me. I would die before I admitted such awful, amateurish, cack-handed work was in any way connected with my company.

But they've bullshitted, and promised the wonder sealant treatment that magically cures everything, and now they're threatening with lawyers and bailiffs. If they put a tenth of the effort into ensuring the job was properly done as they do into issuing rebuttals and sending solicitors' letters, that would be a significant improvement.

As I said, I do try to be fair, and I know that the lads that do a bloody good job are just as pizdov with these clowns as I am, if not more so, as the trade is being destroyed beneath their feet. Some of them are trying to organise an NVQ to ensure installers have access to properly trained lads and lasses, but for every decent contractor, there seems to be a half-dozen numpties that really need to be run out of the trade before PIC acquires the same reputation that stone-cladding had in the 1970s.

[mouldmaker]

I think it's too late, Tony. I have every sympathy with the guys who make the effort and produce the goods, but PIC has gone beyond the stone cladding comparison - for many, it's on a par with Traveller-installed tarmac.

[drivememad]

Thank you for your responses so far.
I spoke to trading standards last week. On the subject of payment, they said that was up to us and that either party can break the contract that we have. Under the sale of goods the services must be as described and free from defect.
Obviously if we choose not to pay then we go down the solicitors route and I don't know we we could prove that it isn't as described or that it is not free from defect.
I really worries me that we could be let considerably out of pocket.
Like you say the problem arises with PIC, because 'once its down, its down' so to speak. We did pay a further £1500 when they came round.
Its difficult to know whether I am being reasonable or not or whether my expectations are too high, all I want is a patio which looks nice. The installations manager said to us that probably no-one else would notice, but because we know its there blah, blah.....he tried to get us to pay the full amount saying that the snagging would be sorted out under the guarantee. I said that a guarantee should only come into the equation if a problem arose further down the line etc etc.
The job is costing £7500 and we only have a further £1500 to pay and they haven't even started on the landscaping yet.
Tony, I would appreciate you taking a look at the photos of the job to see if in your professional opinion I should pay up and shut up or otherwise. I will take some more in the morining as they have made a final attempt at sorting and with PM you if that OK.....cheers all

[Tony McC]

Best to email any photos - they can go astray in the PM system

[drivememad]

ok will do.

[Tony McC]

Your photies...






The company involved in this installation have been brought to my attention on at least two previous occasions within the last 18 months, and every time it is the same problem: they sell the work to a subbie. The subbie wasn't there when the client explained to the main contractor what was required, and so there is a communications gap. Of more concern, though, is the "reverse auction" practice used by companies such as this. They win the work from the client and then phone around a number of local subbies to see who will do it for the lowest price, thereby maximising the main contractor's profit. Quality rarely comes into the equation.

If you want to read about my last encounter with this crowd, see this thread