We are about to have our patio relaid as part of a revamp of our back garden. We are having a landscaper do the work as i cannot lay flags level to save my life.
We have found some Indian stone pavings which look very nice and hopefully would withstand cleaning with a high pressure hose which seems to damage the man made concrete based imitations.
The problem is that my landscaper says that Indian stone is quarried in part with child labour and he is not happy about the conditions the children work in and won't use Indian stone.
I have looked at a number of websites on this issue and the Oxfam site seems the most thoughtful. Oxfam distinguish between bonded child labour which is little more than slavery and poor children trying to get money to help thier own families. Oxfam say that banning all child labour overnight would not be sensible and that the need is to end poverty so as to removethe need for child labour.
The problem is how do I know which stone is quarried with bonded labour, child or otherwise, and which is not. I have tried asking Oxfam and they do not know, saying I should check for myself.
What should I do and how do I find out enough information to satisfy both me and my landscaper.
Rex
Indian Paving Stones and Child labour - Concern about source of materials
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ABILITY
- Posts: 101
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- Location: Cheshire
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This issue is a difficult one, but in the present times cannot imagine a landscaper not using Indian stone.
Good on him for his ethicis, but not good for his economics, as the percentage of paving work using this stone is ever increasing, due to low cost for a natural stone ( hence the child labour ).
This is a much bigger question than just stone though, what jeans does he where, or coffee drinks etc ?
Spare a thought also for the paving manufactures in this country, trying to compete with this stone.
We have only had on client who refused to use Indian due to ethics of the manufacture
Think it may take more than your landscaper to change things now.
Know there has been some investigation into the child labour, but do not know of an information soucre at preasent.
Good on him for his ethicis, but not good for his economics, as the percentage of paving work using this stone is ever increasing, due to low cost for a natural stone ( hence the child labour ).
This is a much bigger question than just stone though, what jeans does he where, or coffee drinks etc ?
Spare a thought also for the paving manufactures in this country, trying to compete with this stone.
We have only had on client who refused to use Indian due to ethics of the manufacture
Think it may take more than your landscaper to change things now.
Know there has been some investigation into the child labour, but do not know of an information soucre at preasent.
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alan ditchfield
- Posts: 203
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
- Location: Preston / Lancashire
We lay a lot of this stone and i am not aware of the child labour involved but i am sure there is, however in India if the children were not earning money this way they would be earning it a different way so not using it is not going to help any of these people in any way. Please note that Indian stone is not cheap because of child labour it is cheap because:-
1. low rates of pay in India (children or adults)
2. Masses of stone to be quaried
3. supply and demand(every man and his dog are importing the stuff)
4. It is used as ballast in boats and is therefore imported almost free of charge.
all this said its nice to know someone is looking out for the interest of the kids, I have my own. Alan
1. low rates of pay in India (children or adults)
2. Masses of stone to be quaried
3. supply and demand(every man and his dog are importing the stuff)
4. It is used as ballast in boats and is therefore imported almost free of charge.
all this said its nice to know someone is looking out for the interest of the kids, I have my own. Alan
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84-1093879891
There are some legitimate concerns regarding how some of the imported flagstones are quarried. I've seen photos of alleged prisonners being required to work the stone with rifles pointed at them, but I wondered how this assemblage of "prisoners" managed to include such a relatively high percentage of skilled stone fettlers. I'm not saying the photos are faked, but it did make me wonder.
However, I have also seen photos supplied to me by companies wanting to use this site to sell their imports, and these photos DO include shots of very young children, certainly not more than 8 years of age, working stone while clad in what looks like rags. I find these images disturbing, and will not provide advertising space or advice to these companies, but again: would they allow "The West" to see such images if there were any genuine concerns regarding human rights and child labour? I'm not sure.
Leighton @ Ability is right to question our attitude to the jeans we wear, the coffee we drink, the fruit we eat - there are valid ethical questions with many of these products, but that's the way the world works under capitalism. Some folk enjoy a better standard of living by ensuring, often indirectly and unconsciously, that some other poor sod gets crapped on from a great height.
I don't think we can boycott the imported flagstone trade as we just don't know the truth. If child labour or other breaches of human rights were to be found and publicised, then the companies involved should be shunned, but I do sense that most of the importers and suppliers are law-abiding and work to the best standards available in their particular part of the world.
As in all trades, there's bound to be a few rogues, but to date, I've seen no hard evidence to suggest that there is definite exploitation of children or anyone else involved in this business. However, I know from personal contact, that there is a deep sense of resentment, tinged with a nasty streak of racism, amongst a small minority of stone producers based in Britain and Ireland. I would not be surprised to learn that this minority were promulgating the 'child labour' rumours currently doing the rounds.
However, I have also seen photos supplied to me by companies wanting to use this site to sell their imports, and these photos DO include shots of very young children, certainly not more than 8 years of age, working stone while clad in what looks like rags. I find these images disturbing, and will not provide advertising space or advice to these companies, but again: would they allow "The West" to see such images if there were any genuine concerns regarding human rights and child labour? I'm not sure.
Leighton @ Ability is right to question our attitude to the jeans we wear, the coffee we drink, the fruit we eat - there are valid ethical questions with many of these products, but that's the way the world works under capitalism. Some folk enjoy a better standard of living by ensuring, often indirectly and unconsciously, that some other poor sod gets crapped on from a great height.
I don't think we can boycott the imported flagstone trade as we just don't know the truth. If child labour or other breaches of human rights were to be found and publicised, then the companies involved should be shunned, but I do sense that most of the importers and suppliers are law-abiding and work to the best standards available in their particular part of the world.
As in all trades, there's bound to be a few rogues, but to date, I've seen no hard evidence to suggest that there is definite exploitation of children or anyone else involved in this business. However, I know from personal contact, that there is a deep sense of resentment, tinged with a nasty streak of racism, amongst a small minority of stone producers based in Britain and Ireland. I would not be surprised to learn that this minority were promulgating the 'child labour' rumours currently doing the rounds.
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mouldmaker
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- Location: south east UK
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Emotive stuff.
I have seen pictures of, giving the benefit of the doubt, young teens, working indian quarries. But Child labor is one part of the issue only.
For anyone to claim that issues of ethical trade are raised due to some form of racism are, frankly, offensive.
Indian stone is cheap, as rightly pointed out, because of low wages (although not low for the region, just by comparison to european standards), high demand, and a seemingly endless supply in a country where paying the bills has to score over environmental concerns.
I have spoken to people who have visited many of these quarries in a professional capacity, and another reason for cheapness is that health and safety standards do not exist. Quarrying is not the safest occupation wherever you carry it out, but try doing it barefoot, one safety helmet between 10 guys if they're lucky, rags not overalls, etc. I believe if figures showing death and injury rates in Indian quarries were published, you'd be horrified.
There is a growing movement towards ethical trade in the UK. Small, but growing.
Also, coincidentally, I believe a documentary highlighting conditions in asian quarries is currently under discusion at the BBC. If this goes ahead, expect a bit of a backlash.
I have seen pictures of, giving the benefit of the doubt, young teens, working indian quarries. But Child labor is one part of the issue only.
For anyone to claim that issues of ethical trade are raised due to some form of racism are, frankly, offensive.
Indian stone is cheap, as rightly pointed out, because of low wages (although not low for the region, just by comparison to european standards), high demand, and a seemingly endless supply in a country where paying the bills has to score over environmental concerns.
I have spoken to people who have visited many of these quarries in a professional capacity, and another reason for cheapness is that health and safety standards do not exist. Quarrying is not the safest occupation wherever you carry it out, but try doing it barefoot, one safety helmet between 10 guys if they're lucky, rags not overalls, etc. I believe if figures showing death and injury rates in Indian quarries were published, you'd be horrified.
There is a growing movement towards ethical trade in the UK. Small, but growing.
Also, coincidentally, I believe a documentary highlighting conditions in asian quarries is currently under discusion at the BBC. If this goes ahead, expect a bit of a backlash.
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MarkB
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:17 pm
- Location: Somerset
I am an oilfield engineer who has recently returned to the Uk after 25 years away. I have worked in every one of these child labour countries and it is absolutely true. It Is a disgusting situation and any right thinking person should refuse anything to do with products from companies that are proven to have slave labour and child labour connections-but it is impossible ito find out which companies they are. India= 70% Indonesia -60% China 50% these are just my figures .
I have recently imported stone into the UK.
I contacted a number of quarries throughout the world to get a stone delivery for house renovations . India and China was only 30 % cheaper than Poland .For me it was a good and ethical decision- I chose Poland but I know many children in India will have benifited if I had bought my granite there.
The biggest problem is the profits from the companies in the UK as the actual quarry price is minimal compared to the profits obtained in the chain towards the consumer.(Just ask a coffee bean farmer how much he gets).
Markb
I have recently imported stone into the UK.
I contacted a number of quarries throughout the world to get a stone delivery for house renovations . India and China was only 30 % cheaper than Poland .For me it was a good and ethical decision- I chose Poland but I know many children in India will have benifited if I had bought my granite there.
The biggest problem is the profits from the companies in the UK as the actual quarry price is minimal compared to the profits obtained in the chain towards the consumer.(Just ask a coffee bean farmer how much he gets).
Markb
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alan ditchfield
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- Location: Preston / Lancashire
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98-1093880025
down loaded a copy of this from a stone export site also from this year omly those mines which are run under an enviromental certificate and licence will be allowed to remain open.
A certificate for stone from India?
The television documentary »Gravestones made by children« sparked off a discussion on working conditions in Indian stone quarries. Two meetings on this subject have already taken place in Germany in Freiburg and Munich with representatives from the stonemasonry trade, the natural stone industry, international relief organizations, Eine-Welt-Arbeit and politics. The aim is to develop a certificate that is awarded to Indian companies with fair production conditions, which are regularly controlled.
Benjamin Pütter, Child Rights Officer of Misereor, and J. Manoharan from the Indian stone quarry workers association »Qwarids« presented the results of their work in Munich at the end of June. Pütter used the working title of »Xertifix« for the planned certificate. According to Pütter, the basis for this certification is to be Indian laws. These provide for a ban on children under 16 years working in the quarries. Access to drinking water and shady shelters for the workers are also a must and health damage is to be curbed. This means that workers should be provided with at least mouth masks or if necessary ear plugs for working on loud machines. The quarry itself should at least be marked by a sign.
Pütter spoke of these measures as complying with minimum social standards. It was not a question of creating general conditions for fair trading of a niche product. A requirement for the implementation of this concept is, however, that the importers of Indian stones also participate.
Pütter says it is planned to set up an association under the chairmanship of Norbert Blüm and Dr. Josef Seyer, Chief Executive of Misereor. It is also planned to include four representatives from the natural stone trading sector on the board. Prominent figures like the actor Klaus Maria Brandauer had also offered their support. Employees of the Indian organisation AIGSA (All India Granite Stone Association) are also to be involved in checking the quarries on the ground.
Pütter intends to operate with a lean organization, but costs will still be incurred. Pütter’s idea is that these should be covered by the importers of Indian stones paying a certain percentage of their turnover into a fund. This fund could also be used to finance supporting social measures.
Effective certification requires a broad involvement of the companies importing from India, but only two companies accepted the invitation to Munich.
A certificate for stone from India?
The television documentary »Gravestones made by children« sparked off a discussion on working conditions in Indian stone quarries. Two meetings on this subject have already taken place in Germany in Freiburg and Munich with representatives from the stonemasonry trade, the natural stone industry, international relief organizations, Eine-Welt-Arbeit and politics. The aim is to develop a certificate that is awarded to Indian companies with fair production conditions, which are regularly controlled.
Benjamin Pütter, Child Rights Officer of Misereor, and J. Manoharan from the Indian stone quarry workers association »Qwarids« presented the results of their work in Munich at the end of June. Pütter used the working title of »Xertifix« for the planned certificate. According to Pütter, the basis for this certification is to be Indian laws. These provide for a ban on children under 16 years working in the quarries. Access to drinking water and shady shelters for the workers are also a must and health damage is to be curbed. This means that workers should be provided with at least mouth masks or if necessary ear plugs for working on loud machines. The quarry itself should at least be marked by a sign.
Pütter spoke of these measures as complying with minimum social standards. It was not a question of creating general conditions for fair trading of a niche product. A requirement for the implementation of this concept is, however, that the importers of Indian stones also participate.
Pütter says it is planned to set up an association under the chairmanship of Norbert Blüm and Dr. Josef Seyer, Chief Executive of Misereor. It is also planned to include four representatives from the natural stone trading sector on the board. Prominent figures like the actor Klaus Maria Brandauer had also offered their support. Employees of the Indian organisation AIGSA (All India Granite Stone Association) are also to be involved in checking the quarries on the ground.
Pütter intends to operate with a lean organization, but costs will still be incurred. Pütter’s idea is that these should be covered by the importers of Indian stones paying a certain percentage of their turnover into a fund. This fund could also be used to finance supporting social measures.
Effective certification requires a broad involvement of the companies importing from India, but only two companies accepted the invitation to Munich.
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alan ditchfield
- Posts: 203
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
- Location: Preston / Lancashire
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84-1093879891
The governments' cut from this trade is minor compared to the profits made by the army of middlemen attracted to this business.
There isn't a day goes past without some Indian-based Imp-Ex company contacting me wanting to use this site to flog flagstones or other stone products. The telling factor is that the majority of these calls are from people with no direct involvement in the trade - they are business people who see an opportunity. They often work by getting a European importer to agree to buy the stone before they (the Indian exporter) actually has the stone in their possession. If they work it properly, they need never risk any of their own capital - they use the importer's money or credit facility to buy the stone, take a large commission for themselves, and with just a few phone calls, they've made a very nice profit.
These people don't give a Donald Duck about working conditions, and there are plenty of Europeans who have a similar attitude. Their profits are all that matters, and if a non-compulsory certification scheme eats into their profits, they'll resist, and they'll continue to supply that sector of the market where price is all that matters.
As part of some other research, I've spoken to three of the UK's largest importers of Indian sandstone products, and they tell me that maybe 1 in 20 private buyers question the origin or 'fair trade principles' of the stone, and for trade buyers, it's as low as 1 in 200. I don't believe there's sufficient impetus in Britain and Ireland to develop this issue into a national campaign at the moment, but if the tv documentaries and press reports that are in preparation have the desired effect, it could soon become more of a 'hot topic' than it is just now.
There isn't a day goes past without some Indian-based Imp-Ex company contacting me wanting to use this site to flog flagstones or other stone products. The telling factor is that the majority of these calls are from people with no direct involvement in the trade - they are business people who see an opportunity. They often work by getting a European importer to agree to buy the stone before they (the Indian exporter) actually has the stone in their possession. If they work it properly, they need never risk any of their own capital - they use the importer's money or credit facility to buy the stone, take a large commission for themselves, and with just a few phone calls, they've made a very nice profit.
These people don't give a Donald Duck about working conditions, and there are plenty of Europeans who have a similar attitude. Their profits are all that matters, and if a non-compulsory certification scheme eats into their profits, they'll resist, and they'll continue to supply that sector of the market where price is all that matters.
As part of some other research, I've spoken to three of the UK's largest importers of Indian sandstone products, and they tell me that maybe 1 in 20 private buyers question the origin or 'fair trade principles' of the stone, and for trade buyers, it's as low as 1 in 200. I don't believe there's sufficient impetus in Britain and Ireland to develop this issue into a national campaign at the moment, but if the tv documentaries and press reports that are in preparation have the desired effect, it could soon become more of a 'hot topic' than it is just now.