The Brew Cabin

I'm looking into what flags to buy for my new patio and have been looking at all the usual suspects - Marshalls, Bradstone et al. I'm after a riven type flag for a random pattern layout of about 45 sqm in an L shape.

I've also got the brochure from Westminister stone and like look of their reclaimed yorkshire/lancashire flags. From posts I've seen, people seem to think they are very good reproductions at a good price.

Sadly, Westminister don't have any stockists near me so that I can go a view the flags in daylight and inspect them etc. They can deliver to me, it's just I would like to see the flags before I buy. Does anyone have any real life pics of work they've done using the above westminister flags? It's fine looking at the brochure but they tend to be well lit professional shots and sometimes the flags look different in the daylight.

Finally, does anyone have any advice on pointing colour for these flags? With the darker lancashire stones, a dark mortar would probably be ok, but with the lighter york flags, maybe this would look out of place. Anybody used these flags who can offer advice?

Thanks in advance.

I have dozens of photies of the Old Yorkshire flags from Westminster. They were taken on a job where the so-called contractor made an absolute testicles of laying them, so they don't show the overall effect to its best, but you can judge the character of the flags themselves. I'll have a root and see if I can pick out a couple of the 'better' looking shots.

As for the pointing - a dark mortar, every time. I just think it creates better initial contrast and 'frames' the flags. I'm sure John Clifford will have some words of advice, and may even have piccies showing the various mortar options, but I've never seen a job yet that looked good when pointed with a plain 'pink' mortar.

Thanks Tony, any pics you have would be much appreciated.

So for dark mortar I would have to add dye as in your case study page, right? Isn't mortar dark anyway though? Is 'pink' mortar unmodified mortar without any dye?

John, can you offer any advice or pics?

(Edited by InfAddict at 1:33 pm on April 21, 2004)

Here's just one pic - I've compressed it as much as I dare without losing too much clarity, and I reckon it gives a fair impression of the flags...we'll wait to see what John has to say!



And yes: pink mortar (aka White mortar) is a plain, uncoloured mortar. It's pink-ish if you start with a red building sand, as is common in the NW of Engerland, but can be a browny-orangey-pink if you use the sands from the SE of the country.

My preference is not for very dark pointing, but for just taking the greyness, brown ness, or pinkiness out of the pointing mix. I would also try to avoid 'matching' the colour of the flags. Although the pointing will usually weather differently to the flags.

Most good builders' merchants stock concrete pigments.

I would start with between 40:60 by weight, of yellow:black (pigments vary enormously in strength, shade and performance, so you'll need to do some experimenting first)

Once you have achieved the desired shade - and remember the colour will be very much paler when the mortar has dried - remember that each batch or mix of pointing mortar will need to be the same - or as consistent as possible. (aim for perfection, and if you fall slightly short you should be ok..... same with everything in life really!!!)

Pigment quantity is proportional to the cement content, and I would try around 3% by weight. ie for every 10kg of cement in your pointing mix, use 300 grams (0.3kg) of pigment. Increase that slightly if you're mixing by hand as mixing won't be as efficient and you won't disperst all of the pigment.

Please note that the above is for pointing products equivalent to Westminster Stone's Old Yorkshire Street Flags, or Yorkstone Flags - Old Lancashire Mill Flags and Weathered York, may want to be slightly darker.

I've also spotted that two of the Flags in the photo are WS Yorkstone reproductions, not Old Yorkshire Street Flags as the rest - you can tell by both colour and texture. Not sure whether it was deliberate.

Any more info or advice, please feel free to give me a call. 01978 710685

Cheers!

The eejits responsible for this paving did well to get them laid the right way up John, let alone mix in flags from a different range! :o

Ackshirley, that came up when I did the quality report on this paving project. The contractor (I use the term in its widest possible sense) reckons they were supplied the odd 900x450s by a certain stockist in Wilmslow as part of the entire order, so it was "not their fault". I tend to believe them as they aren't bright enough to come up with that excuse on their own!

Going back to the dyes for a moment, I reckon you need around 5% dye to cement for a richer colour, especially with blacks and dark browns. You can get away with 3% when using reds or tans, but, as with much in the building trade, it;s a matter of trial and error. Whatever proportion of dye is used, though, it's essential that the same 'recipe' is followed religiously until all the pointing is complete, or you end up with 96 shades of grey.

I'll send you some of the less complimentary pics of the job by email, John. I wouldn't like to publish them on the interweb, as they do a great disservice both to your products and to my trade, but they have to be seen to be believed!

Thanks for all the replies and advice guys.

Even to my untrained eye, the way those flags have been layed looks a bit dodgy ;)

I will continue with choosing flags/mortar whilst prepping the site for laying and drainage.

5% is fine - as I said, my preference is just to take the grey / pink / brown off, but if you actually want to 'colour' as opposed to 'hint' then 5% may be better. We use a considerably more than 5% in flagstone production.

Going back to the point you raised, that the stockist probably did supply those incorrect colour / textured flags. I would a gree that there's a good chance that either the stockist, (or even dare I say it, the manufacturer!!) delivered / labelled the product incorrecly. Most stockists & manufacturers will make occasional mistakes - But if we think that they stand out in the photo, they would have been even more obvious when they were first delivered.

A simple tip:- if you're not sure about the colour or correctness of a product when it arrives on site, for goodness sake, don't lay it!! Phone the supplier or manufacturer first. It makes it 10 times more difficult (and thus more expensive) to sort out the problem afterwards.

Cheers