The Brew Cabin

Hi,

I'm all new to this game, but with the info on this site I feel confident I'll be able to lay my patio.

However, when I look at choices of materials I'm really not sure. My partner and I both like the look of Marshall's Heritage (old york greyish colour), but want to know what alternatives to use that are out there. Also, anyone know any good stockists in north london / essex area - have been quoted a rediculous price by T+P!

Also, what's the difference between Chancery and Heritage (both from Marshalls)? Is it right that it's not easy to lay either of these on a screed bedding and I'll have to do individual bedding?. Is there a suitable alternative that I could lay on a screed?

Thanks in advance for the answers - And a HUGE thanks to Tony for creating this amazing resource.

Patrick Myles

Have a look at the Westminster Stone range. Phone for a local stockist, or can supply direct with mechanical offloading etc, if there isn't one close.

John's flags are among the best concrete copies in the country and I would certainly recommend you take a look at his product range before making a final decision. There are quite a few other options out there, ranging from the cringeworthy to the very good, but only you can decide which is best for your project. Get hold of a copy of John's catalogue, and compare it with the flags from Marshalls, Bradstone, Atlas, Stonemarket and all the other usual suspects. I can assure you that Westminster stone's flags are as good as any of the others, and, aesthetically, they are better than most.

The diff between Chancery and Heritage is around 10 quid per square metre, depending on where you buy them! ;)
Seriously, though, the Heritage is a good quality medium-priced product that I personally find to be unconvincing as a replica riven flagstone, but then, in that particular class of paving, in which I would include the Wetherdale from Bradstone and the Yorkdale/Canterbury from Atlas, it is as good as any of the rest of them. Chancery is a premium product, a much more convincing replica with great attention to detail and is manufactured using a different (better) concrete. It's one of the top 'replicas', in the same range as John's superb products or the Old Town from Bradstone. It's that difference in quality that you're paying for.

All wet-cast flags, which is what we're talking about here, need to be individually bedded. You can have a go using a screeded bed, but you'll find yourself lifting and re-seating half the flags due to the inherent differences in thickness that occur with this type of manufacturing process.

There are some cheapo pressed riven-effect flags on the market. I would rate them as totally appalling and not fit to be used beneath a dog kennel, but they can be laid on a screeded bed,. Sadly, the finished results are pretty awful from an aethetic point of view, but, to be fair to the manufactutrers, they are sold as a 'budget' product.

So, the choice is yours. Get hold of some catalogues and take a wander around a few of the better paving yards to look at actual examples rather than photos. There's no point in opting for the first thing you see when you consider that you'll be staring at the finished patio for the next god-knows-how-many years!

Thanks a lot for both replies.

I'm going to go and have a look at the Westminster Old York / Weathered York on Thursday at my local(ish) supplier (Adrian Hall in Hampstead).

I'm also gonna check out the Bradstone Old Town, but to be fair the Westminster price seems better, so if I like it I may well go for it.

One further thing - I have re-assesed my site and think I'll need to build up the level somewhat. Previously there was a 2-level crazy-paving patio that stepped down about 1m from the house. It was set in FAR too much sand (some places nearly a foot deep, and the level now ranges from 5cm too low (at the house) to 17cm too low (far end of patio - 3.5m).

Is it best to get some DTp type 2 and bring it up to a suitable level for the bedding layer? I think it will be easiest to have a single step outside the french doors down to the patio, as otherwise I'll need to bring the level up even further.

I will read-up on individual bedding, seems like it's more hassle than it's worth to try a screeded bed.

One final question... What type of edging would you recommend for this project? Obviously one edge will be flush with the house, the other long edge meets a lawn and some low beds. I suppose it's necessary to put something there to hold it in rather than use mortar under that edge?

Well, I've decided to go for Westminster Stone Old York Street. It's a good price and looks great.

It's arriving on wednesday along with 1 tonne of sand, 5 bags of cement and 2 tonnes of "scalpings" for the sub-base, which they assure me are "equivalent" to MOT 1 or 50mm crusher run!.

Does anyone have any experience of cutting circular holes in wet-cast concrete? I am intending to sink uplighters into the flags on a low voltage circuit. The chap at my supplier hadn't had experience of doing it, but suggested that tilers and the like used special drill bits a bit like the saw-toothed circular ones used to cut large circular holes in wood.

I couldn't find such a drill bit when I looked, so I was planning to drill lots of holes around the perimeter of circle and chip out the centre with a cold chisel. Would this work? Do I risk splitting the concrete?

I assume someone must have done this at some point, so I thought I'd ask!

Thanks again for all the advice and a great site, without which I'd be approaching next weekend with much lower confidence!

It's good to see you've managed to make progress in my absence, and I'm sure you'll be chuffed with those flags from John's company, so I'll move on to your outstanding concerns...

"Scalpings" is a term used in the south of England for granular sub-base material. It's sometimes a DTp1, sometimes a crusher run, but, in general, whatever they deliver, it's fine for patio construction.

When it comes to cutting circular holes, you need a core-cutting bit fixed to a good quality drill, and, if you have it, a drill stand is a great boon in keeping the drill steady and accurate. You should be able to hire an appropriately-sized core bit from the better class of hire shops or a specialist Concrete Cutting company - see Yeller Pages.

The method you propose is known as 'Stitch Drilling' and, while it can work, it does tend to leave a tatty, ragged edge to the cut, and is unbelievably time-consuming. But - if you've no other option, it's better than nowt!

So - that's it: you're all set for a fun-packed weekend and I look forward to hearing how you get on. :)

Good luck!

Right then, only a few more questions (honest!), then I'm ready for the weekend, I think!

1) Dry-run.
It's recommended by the manufacturers that the flags are laid out prior to bedding to ensure it all fits. Is this really necessary? I've pretty-well allowed for 15mm joints and designed my random layout already? If I do need a dry run, can I do this straight on to the sub-base without any bedding?

2) Ducting my low-voltage cable.
I was going to use that plastic ribbed tubing for the job. Can this be done in the bedding layer, or does it need to be in the sub-base?

3) Individual bedding.
I am laying a sub-base, as mentioned above and hiring a plate compactor for the job. You say on your bedding page the bed should be compacted. With an individual bed should I make enough compacted bed for a few slabs then build up or take down the level accordingly, or simply make each bed as I go? If I make each bed as I go how is it possible to compact what might be a small (300x300 min) area with the plate compactor? Will a full-sized maul be OK on these wet-cast slabs?

4) Mortar buttering.
Should this be done with the same mortar mix that's used for pointing? I'm not sure yet whether to use a dye as the flags are quite dark grey anyway, and will probably point the whole lot at the end anyhow, so if I butter with plain mortar and point with dyed, that's okay I assume?

5) Finished surface
The flags were supplied mixed-up on pallets, with plastic spacers cast into the bottom to avoid scratches. However, some of the spacers were broken, some of the stacking was poor so there are some scratches to the top surface in places. Also I guess they may get scratched after they are laid. Is it fine to leave the top surface as-is, or should I apply some kind of seal or finish to them? (I DON'T want them shiny, by the way!!)

Right then, I think that's it! (I just looked at my post and realised I've asked 5 questions, but I have been reading the site, it's just your forum's so great!!)

Thanks for all the help - I'll post some pictures when it's all done!

(Edited by patrickm at 9:33 am on April 16, 2004)

1 - In my experience, if you've pre-planned the layout it always 'fits together'. The only time problems arise is when you have a 'string' of the smaller units, let's say 9 of the 300x300 units, aligned alongside a handful of large units, let's say 3 of the 900x600mm units. In theory, both come to 2700mm, but, in actuality, the small units have 8 joints @ 12mm = 96mm, whereas the big flags have only 2 joints @ 12mm = 24mm, a discrepancy of 72mm (3 inches in old money).

The trick is to have a good distribution of sizes. :)

2 - it doesn't really matter but it is much better if it's in the sub-base, as it offers more protection.

3 - With individual bedding, the bedding is only lightly compacted - trampling with boots is more than adequate. The final consolidation comes when the flag is in place and is tapped down to level with the maul.

And don't worry about the maul - these flags are much tougher than you think. As long as you're "tapping" or "persuading", rather than hammering, they'll be fine. In reality, it's the larger flags that are more at risk from breakage, not the ickle tiddlers!

4 - You can use a 'plain' mortar for buttering and a coloured mortar for the pointing if you wish. However, it really is a lot better if you can point up on the same day that the flags were laid - it gives a much better joint as the two 'batches' of mortar are able to form a proper chemical bond, and not just a simple 'adhesion' as happen when the buttering mortar has been allowed to hydrate for 24 hours or more.

5 - Please don't ruin these flags by using a sealant. The 'scratches' will probably disappear within a week or so of being laid, as the pavement is trafficked, and you'll have a much more natural looking surface before you know it!

Good luck, and don't forget the photies! :)