I am a DIY gardener who is attempting to do some major changes to our uneven and neglected garden. I have built three linked ponds -two raised for fish with a waterfall between them and a small wildlife pond adjacent to these and have planned a patio around them. I have got a lot of advice from this web site that has given me confidence to do more than I would have attempted previously- pinning the railway sleepers that I have used for the raised pool sides was a great help. I am now in the process of needing to order the flags and set out for drainage etc now that the ponds are complete. The patio will surround the ponds and in total has an area of about 45 sqm. Marshalls riven flags seem too expensive - would Builder Centre brand - Salisbury be a safe choice? (450X450 £2.34) How could I work out a random pattern- they come in 4 sizes?
Another problem I have is the path from the back door of the house has two sewer manhole covers - old and ugly made of large concrete slabs with a cast iron lid. I would like to replace these with something that flags would sit into but don't know what would span the present manhole. Please can you advise? Grahame
Choosing patio flags / drainage problem
-
84-1093879891
Hi Grahame,
when it comes to flags, you gets what you pays for. The Salisbury range are a "Budget" version of Marshalls' Heritage or Bradstone Old Riven and you have to ask where the cost savings are made - by using poorer dyes, less of them, and a lower cement content. You might save a fiver per square metre, but, in 2 or 3 years time, they start to look like what they are - concrete copies. Many folk are now switching to the imported sandstone flags - they cost a few quid more, admittedly, but they are genuine stone and can't end up looking like poor concrete copies a few years down the line.
However, as I always say, it's you that has to live with these flags, not me, so you must choose what you like, not what I like!
For a random pattern, you might find that the manufacturer offers a basic random layout that you can adapt, or you might be able to use the misleadingly named Random Patio Generator from Bradstone, or you can work out a pattern for yourself, as described on the Random Layouts page. If you have an irregularly shaped area, a custom-designed layout is your best option.
And finally, for your ugly MH covers - replace them, with Recess Tray covers, as described in the block paving section of the website. Regardless of what size are the existing covers, there is a tray available to replace them and make them damn near 'invisible'. :)
when it comes to flags, you gets what you pays for. The Salisbury range are a "Budget" version of Marshalls' Heritage or Bradstone Old Riven and you have to ask where the cost savings are made - by using poorer dyes, less of them, and a lower cement content. You might save a fiver per square metre, but, in 2 or 3 years time, they start to look like what they are - concrete copies. Many folk are now switching to the imported sandstone flags - they cost a few quid more, admittedly, but they are genuine stone and can't end up looking like poor concrete copies a few years down the line.
However, as I always say, it's you that has to live with these flags, not me, so you must choose what you like, not what I like!
For a random pattern, you might find that the manufacturer offers a basic random layout that you can adapt, or you might be able to use the misleadingly named Random Patio Generator from Bradstone, or you can work out a pattern for yourself, as described on the Random Layouts page. If you have an irregularly shaped area, a custom-designed layout is your best option.
And finally, for your ugly MH covers - replace them, with Recess Tray covers, as described in the block paving section of the website. Regardless of what size are the existing covers, there is a tray available to replace them and make them damn near 'invisible'. :)
-
71-1093879304
Thanks for your reply Tony. I'm going to go for the Marshalls flags.
I have asked around builders suppliers and am having difficulty in getting a recessed tray that will bridge the brick manholes I spoke of. The internal measurement of the MH is 38"x28 1/2". Can you advise me on a supplier in the Merseyside area that could supply a suitable tray? I've read your pages on manholes and it looks as though I'd have to reduce the size of the hole to fit a tray- I'm a bit apprehensive about this and if I can get a ready made tray I'd feel happier.:smile:
I have asked around builders suppliers and am having difficulty in getting a recessed tray that will bridge the brick manholes I spoke of. The internal measurement of the MH is 38"x28 1/2". Can you advise me on a supplier in the Merseyside area that could supply a suitable tray? I've read your pages on manholes and it looks as though I'd have to reduce the size of the hole to fit a tray- I'm a bit apprehensive about this and if I can get a ready made tray I'd feel happier.:smile:
-
84-1093879891
What used to be Parr's at Bootle (I think it's a Builder Centre, now) should have a reducing slab for your MH and then you can use a 'standard' 600x600 or 600x450 recess tray.
To buy a tray to fit your MH exactly would cost around 600 quid and would have to be specially manufactured, whereas you can get a reducing slab for 20 quid or thereabouts, and a standard tray for under 40 quid. The reducing slab is simply bedded onto the existing brickwork and the tray sits on top of it - it's an absolute doddle! That is how a 'professional' would do the job, Grahame.
If you have no luck at Parrs/Builder Centre, there's Burdens here in Sunny Warrington, or Cooper Clarke in Bolton, both of whom definitely have the cover slabs available ex-stock.
To buy a tray to fit your MH exactly would cost around 600 quid and would have to be specially manufactured, whereas you can get a reducing slab for 20 quid or thereabouts, and a standard tray for under 40 quid. The reducing slab is simply bedded onto the existing brickwork and the tray sits on top of it - it's an absolute doddle! That is how a 'professional' would do the job, Grahame.
If you have no luck at Parrs/Builder Centre, there's Burdens here in Sunny Warrington, or Cooper Clarke in Bolton, both of whom definitely have the cover slabs available ex-stock.
-
84-1093879891
I've just been having a think about your MH, Grahame. Those Imperial measurements threw me, but, when I converted them into nice, sensible, logical metric units, the scale of the problem became more apparent.
I thought you might have been able to get away with a 1200x750 rectangular cover slab, which are easily handled by a couple of fit lads (or lasses!), but the internal dimension of the chamber width is 727mm, which means there's only be 23mm (less than an inch in old money) of spead onto the side walls.
This leaves you two options - you either corbel in the top course of brickwork so that the 1200x750 reducing slab is properly supported, or you use a 1350mm dia circular 'biscuit', which is considerably heavier than a 1200x750 reducing slab - 400kg against 80kg - and would have to be craned into position....
...I think, if this is a DIY effort, the corbelling option is the simpler for you, but, if you're bringing in a contractor, then the circular biscuit might be their preferred option.
I thought you might have been able to get away with a 1200x750 rectangular cover slab, which are easily handled by a couple of fit lads (or lasses!), but the internal dimension of the chamber width is 727mm, which means there's only be 23mm (less than an inch in old money) of spead onto the side walls.
This leaves you two options - you either corbel in the top course of brickwork so that the 1200x750 reducing slab is properly supported, or you use a 1350mm dia circular 'biscuit', which is considerably heavier than a 1200x750 reducing slab - 400kg against 80kg - and would have to be craned into position....
...I think, if this is a DIY effort, the corbelling option is the simpler for you, but, if you're bringing in a contractor, then the circular biscuit might be their preferred option.
-
71-1093879304
Sorry to bother you Tony, but please can you help me with a question about laying flags - I'm now ready to start laying the Marshalls Heritage Flags for which I've designed a random 5 size laying diagram based on your designs but added to to fit the irregular size of my patio area. I've marked out the right angle from the house wall and got the levels marked for fall and base levels (90mm below the top of final flag level). My question is do you lay the first flags to the line of the house wall or should you cut in to this like you would with floor tiles?
Thanks for your great advice in previous replies.
Grahame :confused:
Thanks for your great advice in previous replies.
Grahame :confused:
-
84-1093879891
The first 'course' of flags can be laid so that the edges of the flags are tight up against the house itself (allowing for any jointing), but the opposite edge of that 'course' is staggered. If you look at any of the smaple designs I provide on the Random Layouts, you can see that two edges in any rectangular area can be laid using full flags, and the 'cuts to fit' will only be required on the other two edges.
Does that make any sense?
Does that make any sense?