The Brew Cabin

Hi,
Two months ago, we had some paving re-laid by a landscaping company. It is an area of about 16 square metres, the paving slabs are liscannor stone (various sizes, but all rectangular), and the base was about two thirds existing concrete path, the rest being earth/soil that had been lying under concrete paving slabs for several years. The original paving had been put down by someone who really didn't care about what they were doing (the slabs were laid on a dry mix and were far from level, they rocked, and he had smeared cement all over the edges of the stone while pointing - it was a mess).

The paving was re-laid on a wet mix during cold and damp weather and was pointed 2 days later (again while the weather was cold and damp). Initally it looked okay, although some of the gaps between the stone varied from about 5mm to 30mm, but once the weather started to clear up, we could see that the new pointing was on the stone as well as in the gaps (it spread over the stone by anything between 10mm and 20mm). We tried to brush it off with a wire brush, but we had very limited success for a lot of effort. We reported the problem to the landscaping company a couple of weeks later when they were back at work after Christmas, and by this time we had found that some of the slabs rocked too. Fortunately, we hadn't paid them a penny as yet because they had a few more bits of work to do for us. It tooks seven weeks of phone calls, plus a letter stating that we'd pay someone else to do the job properly, to get them to make an appointment to come back again.

On seeing the paving, they tried to argue that the pointing looked fine (they even claimed that the pointing was a dry mix that should not have stuck to the stone in the first place), but when we persisted they agreed to tackle it. They came back with an acid wash/rinse, which removed some of the pointing but not all (they claimed some of it could not be removed, but even as they demonstrated this by scraping at it with a trowel, some of it did come away). They also relaid some of the rocking slabs, but when pointing them (on the same day) they again spread the pointing over the stone edges. When we checked later, we again found some slabs that are certainly lose (when we stamp on them they seem to hit the underlying concrete and spring back up again) and others that appear to be lose (they dip at one corner when you stand on them).

We still have not paid them, although they are now pressing to be paid, so before I hand over any cash I'd really appreciate the advice of those that really know this area. To us it seems like the job was badly done, but we really don't know what qaulity of work we should expect as we are not familiar with the foibles of paving. Specifically:
- is it acceptable to have any pointing over the edge of the stone slabs? It looks messy, but is it even feasible/possible to avoid it?
- should the gaps between the stone slabs be a consistent size throughout the paved area, or is this expecting too much?
- some of the slabs are "at angles" to some of the others i.e. the edge of one slab dips downwards while the edge of the next slab dips upwards. The difference in height between the edges is no more than 4 or 5 mm, but should we expect the slabs to be more "level" relative to each other?
- there are two or three small pieces of stone (about 50mm square) used in various places, presumably to avoid extra cutting of the slabs around them - is this common practice or should they just have gone ahead with the extra cutting?
- for slabs that are laid on a wet mix, should any of the slab move when stood on i.e. if one corner of a slab dips by 1 or 2 mm when you stand on that corner (all other corners seem fine), should that slab be relaid?
- should slabs laid on a wet mix sound hollow when you tap them? If I put one hand on one corner of the stone, and tap the other corner with my other hand, I feel the vibration through the stone which suggests to me that the cement has not gripped the stone at all - in this case it would seem like the only thing holding the slab in place is the other slabs around it - is this normal? The landscapers claim that the slabs are bound to sound hollow as they are "laid on spots of cement".

Thanks in advance for any help that you can provide.

Hi,

taking your questions one at a time...

- is it acceptable to have any pointing over the edge of the stone slabs? It looks messy, but is it even feasible/possible to avoid it?

It is NOT acceptable to have excessive mortar stains on the face of what are comparatively expensive flags. You employed what you took to be a professional paving contractor just to avoid this sort of problem. With some low-cost out-of-sight jobs, and, sadly, some public highways work, the flagger seems to get away with what we call 'slapdash' pointing, ie, the mortar is 'slapped' down on the empty joint and 'dashed' with the edge of the trowel to force it in. While this is sometimes acceptable to Local Authorties Highways Departments, who are more concerned with properly filled and tooled joints than with aesthetic, it is NOT the standard that can be reasonably expected on a residential patio using high-value flagstones.



This is some work I spotted on Regent St in London last year - personally, I would not have passed this work, but, obviously, some Highways Inspector in the Big Metropolis reckons that the volume of foot traffic will soon clear away the staining, and it will...eventually, but in the meantime, it looks like sloppy and careless work. :(

On a residential patio, you;re just not going to get the numbers of pedestrians to erase the staining, and, quite frankly, you didn't pay all that money to see mortar slopped all over the place!

- should the gaps between the stone slabs be a consistent size throughout the paved area, or is this expecting too much?

With the Liscannor Flags, you can't always get a universal joint size, ie, every joint at exactly 12mm, but it is possible to get every joint somewhere in the 9-15mm range, if the flagger is prepared to put in the effort and re-space the flags to even out joint width as required prior to final pointing.


- some of the slabs are "at angles" to some of the others i.e. the edge of one slab dips downwards while the edge of the next slab dips upwards. The difference in height between the edges is no more than 4 or 5 mm, but should we expect the slabs to be more "level" relative to each other?

This can happen when paving is 'rolling over' or twisting to tie in with varying levels. It's often overcome by using diagonal cuts across the flags, allowing them to be 'folded over', as shown here....



...but again, this just would not be acceptable on a residential patio.

Any lip of more than 6mm is a hazard. It should be possible on most patios to lay the flags in such a way that 'lips' are eliminated or minimised so that they are not more than 3mm, unless you have an unnatural amount of twist on the patio.

- there are two or three small pieces of stone (about 50mm square) used in various places, presumably to avoid extra cutting of the slabs around them - is this common practice or should they just have gone ahead with the extra cutting?

Without seeing the work, I can't really say, but it does sound iffy. We always try to eliminate any pieces of flag that are less than one-third of a full flag, unless there is no other simple way of piecing-in.

- for slabs that are laid on a wet mix, should any of the slab move when stood on i.e. if one corner of a slab dips by 1 or 2 mm when you stand on that corner (all other corners seem fine), should that slab be relaid?

There should be no movement whatsoever. Not 1mm not 2mm, not 3mm, none, neamhni, nowt, buggerall. Those flags should be solid, and if they're not, then yes: they should be re-laid.

- should slabs laid on a wet mix sound hollow when you tap them?

Oh no!! The dreaded spot-bedding, beloved of tv makeover programs but despised by any professional contractor. It's amateur, despite what you might see in manufacturers' brochures, and it would get a contractor thrown off any reputable site. Flags should be laid on a full bed of sand or mortar/concrete, but NOT on spots of mortar for all the reasons listed on the Laying Flags page.

Overall, it sounds like a poor job and I'd suggest you put your concerns in writing to the contractor responsible and see what remedial action they propose. I'd start by asking for
<ul>
<li>all mortar stained flags to be removed from the site and replaced with new.
<li>all joints to be evenly spaced prior to repointing
<li>all pointing to be cut out and re-done without staining or smearing
<li>elimination of all lips and trips
<li> replacement of all small 'bits'
<li> relaying of all flags exhibiting any movement. To be relaid on a full mortar bed. NOT SPOT BEDDING
</ul>

Take photos of the existing work, using coins or a tape measure to indicate scale and put absolutely everything in writing. Don't rely on verbal promises - they're worth nowt, and any reputable contractor will not object to written agreements.

Let me know how you get on. :)

Hi Tony,
Many thanks for your detailed reply. You have confirmed our fears about being taken for a ride which will prove a great help when tackling this problem. As it happens we had a visit from the owner of the company last night, wanting to collect his cash. Having read some of the (excellent) articles on your site regarding laying of stone and pointing, I put our concerns to him pretty strongly. He was extremely offended when I asked why they used spot-bedding and bascically ranted for a minute or so about his qualifications. My wife had to reassure him that we were not challenging him, merely trying to clarify things, before he calmed down. He stood his ground when it came to the quality of the work, even though he immediately agreed to getting his guys out to apply another acid rinse to the messy pointing.

Unfortunately, the paving stones which moved on Sunday night last (after a warm day), didn't move at all last night (after a wet day) so he wouldn't believe me when I told him of the movement in them. Can a day of wet weather have such an impact on a patio that was laid 2 months ago? I know that I wasn't imagining the movement in these stones on Sunday night, but that was the stance that he took. He made a few claims that I have serious doubts about and which he couldn't support, some of which were;
- all patios have some movement in them, "its the nature of them",
- the hollow sounding stones are not a concern, and will never crack because the "stone is so hard",
- the patio is not designed to be "jumped on" (I stamped my feet on some of the slabs when testing whether they rocked) and that this may cause the slabs to loosen, and he went back to this argument again and again (he wouldn't answer my question of whether they could lay the slabs on anything harder than concrete which could handle such stamping. I asked this because I couldn't believe what he had just said).

He effectively ignored my questions of why there were dips in some of the slabs, and why the pointing has been re-done so badly, presumably because he couldn't defend that work. He focused on the movement of the stone, or lack of movement to his mind. He did try to claim that the pointing could have been difficult because of the small joints between some of the slabs, but quickly dropped this when I pointed out that his guys made the joints that small where they were like that.

The outcome of last nights discussion is that he will get someone else (a third party, but someone that he knows) to look at the patio and give his opinion as to whether they did a good job, as his own stance is that the work is good and ours is that it is not. In the meantime I am going to investigate someone myself that may be able to offer a professional opinion that we'll be able to trust. I'll let you know how I get on.

More or less the response I could have predicted! Why do so many contractors take constructive criticism of their work so personally? If a customer is dis-satisfied, the contractor gettting 'nowty' with them, as they say around here, isn't likely to convice them that they have misjudged the standard of work all along, is it? ;)

So: these qualifications your man has. What would they be? There is no longer a nationally recognised apprenticeship for paving, something which galls me to the core, and there hasn't been since the days of <spit> Thatcher. :(

Strange as it may seem, damp or wet weather can make it seem that paving is no longer moving. The water gets into the joints, swells up the jointing material and thereby 'hides' slight movement. It won't hide severe movement, but if you're still worried, then get him back on a dry day.

As for the claim that "all patios have some movement in them, its the nature of them", is complete and utter obllocks. If there is movemnent, why has he provided rigid (ie mortar) joints? If a pavement is flexible, then the jointing MUST be flexible, ie sand jointing or similar. Mortar is not flexible.

The fear of the 'stones' cracking is not the main concern with spot bedding. The voids beneath the paving can lead to settlement and they allow water to collect. And the claim that patioos are not designed to be 'jumped upon'! Well, neither was my patio, but it can withstand the loads imposed by my 17 year old 15 stone eejit son launching himself from a ladder. Jumping would be considered a reasonable activity on any pavement - you try and stop kids from jumping (or adults, when they've had a few shandies at a summer bbq!!)

A 'mate' of his is unlikely to be impartial and allowing such an inspection to take place only undermines your case, as your man can argue that he even brought such-and-such-abody around and you still weren't convinced. You should choose an impartial inspector unknown to either party, but acceptable to both.

I repeat what I said last night. Put your concerns in writing so there is less chance for 'he said, she said' at some later stage, and everyone knows exactly which are the areas of dispute. It also helps ensure you get an answers to all your questions, not just the ones he feels he can bluster through.

Finally, be very, very careful with the acid wash. It can adversely affect the nature of those flags if it's not done properly. :(

Keep me informed.

Hi Tony,
We have arranged to have the paving work assessed by a third party this coming weekend. The third party is someone that our landscaping guy suggested, but we have had brief dealings with this particular guy before, as it turns out, and we think (hope) that he'll be fair. I have done some checking here (Ireland) and unfortunately there is no impartial body that we can turn to, at least none that this landscaping company is a member of. I may have sourced someone else that'll be able to come look at the work before the weekend though, to get what will hopefully be a guaranteed impartial opinion of the quality of the work.

As regards the movement of the slabs, following a couple of dry days they are very clearly moving again, so it does look like the rain has resulted in water getting in underneath the patio during the wet days and making the slabs appear more solid. (An interesting effect of the wet weather was that we had a couple of worms come up through the pointing. Either we house a hardcore family of worms complete with tunneling equipment, or else the solidity of the pointing is questionable too). If the weather holds up for the weekend, then there can be no debating that the slabs move, during the inspection, otherwise we'll have to reschedule the visit by the third party guy. In the meantime, we have opted to postpone the cleaning of the pointing using the acid wash so that the work can be assessed in all its current glory - the landscaping company were not happy about this, but we are not inclined to do them any favours by letting them tidy up some of their mess before it is seen by this external guy. Its a shame that it has got to this stage, as we would have been happy if they had just accepted that the work was bad and re-laid the stone, now they have pushed it to the point of laying the reputation of their company on the line by arrogantly standing over the bad work that they have done.

As regards putting our concerns in writing, we still have the original registered letter that we sent to them a few weeks ago, whic led them to come and re-lay some of the most obviously loose stone slabs, and the same issues still apply now as we described in that letter (pretty much exactly the same concerns). However, if their response to the inspection is unsatisfactory then we'll follow up with another registered letter describing the latest state of affairs.

I'll let you know how things go. Thanks again for the advice.

It's not just Ireland that lacks an impartial professional body for paving, there's none in the UK, either, and it galls me that anyone can set themselves up as a paving contractor, with no skills or training, and they;re allowed to get away with it.

Interlay, the trade body for Block Paving contractors has one or two members in the north of Ireland, if I recall correctly, but for flags/slabs, the tarmac, pic and all the other types of paving work, there's nothing. :(

I look forward to hearing what the 3rd Party Inspector has to say, once he's had a chance to review the work for himself. Be sure to let me know how it goes. :)

Hi Tony,
We have finally given up on our original landscaping company. The third party hasn't been able to come and view the work due to a combination of bad weather and him being too busy, apparently, but at this stage we have had enough. I have shown photos of the site to another professional - he is someone that I trust, but unfortunately he is based too far away for it to be feasible to come here just to inspect the site. Based on the photos, and the fact that there are lots of loose slabs (we discover more paving stones working loose each week practically), he certainly reckons that no-one could stand over that job. We have decided to cut our losses and have written to the landscaping company pointing out that they are in breach of contract, that we plan to have someone else re-do the paving, and that we wish to hear nothing more from them. We have already paid for a portion of the work , which more than generously covers some other bits of work that they did for us (planting trees, laying a few tonnes of top soil), so they can't feel aggrieved by this. As for us, we certainly do feel aggrieved, and partly out of pocket, but we don't fancy the prospect of taking legal action as the whole thing has been stressful enough already. If the company chooses to contest the current situation though, then at that stage we'll look at the legal options (a 5 minute site visit will leave no professional in any doubt about the lack of quality of the work, so they couldn't possibly hope to win any legal action).

Thanks a lot for your advice on this, as it has helped us a lot. I can't help wondering whether this landscaping company will still be around in a few years time. They seem to be very proud of their reputation, but another few jobs like this, on their part, will put paid to that. We certainly won't be recommending them to anyone.

It's disappointing to hear that you've had no luck with this job, but I suspect that 'cutting your losses' is the best you can expect when the company concerned have no guarantee policy, and the trade in general has no effective policing of standards or professional qualifications.

The reputation of this company is their most valuable assett - a good reputation takes a lifetime to earn and a moment to lose, so it's worth notifying Trading Standards of your dissatisfaction, or, if you're really 'aggrieved' (that's just a polite way of saying 'pissed off', isn't it! ;) ) then you could follow the example of a householder in Warwickshire who, having suffered a similar fate as yourself, erected one of those A'frame double sided advertising boards outside their home, emblazoned with the legend "Crap Paving and Shoddy Landscaping by (such-and-such-a-body) - You've been warned!" - I thought that was quite clever. :)