Hi Tony,
Just some background first:
We have recently had our backyard paved with Stonemarket indian flags. The total area is about 95sqm. There is a patio section in a dark limestone color, which comes out from the house about 4m, then a lighter color is layed directly adjacent running out to the fence and to the side of the house. In the middle of the light colored area an admiral star pattern has been layed, which is circular but we purchase a squaring off kit for it which makes the shape square. A professional marshall accredited landscaper was engaged to do all the works, which came to a total labour cost of about 3500 pounds.
The first piece of work performed was the patio area, which was layed almost to perfection. All gaps were in the range of 10-15mm, all stones were laid straight, and we were very happy with the work.
Next the admiral star pattern was layed. We queried the contractor about doing this before the surrounding stone was layed, and he assured us he knew what he was doing, so we let him go. We did also ask him whether he needed to measure and distances before laying this pattern (my wife indicated where we roughly wanted it, but we thought he would need to measure things so that it could be laid square), but he again assured us that he knew what he was doing so we shut up. The pattern was laid and it looked great.
The next section layed was a 1m wide strip running away from the patio flush against the left hand fence. The flag sizes were a mixture of 1x1, 2x2 and 1x2. At the landscapers request we were not present on site during the day at all, so we arrived home in the evening do discover:
- gaps in the stone ranging from 10mm to 60mm
- most stones were not square to each other
- the stones were not square to the fence
- the stones were not square to the admiral star pattern.
I spoke to the landscaper that same evening and asked if he still had more to do before completing that work (I could not believe it was complete because it looked so different to the first piece of work he had done). He replied calmly that yes it was, and he was going to continue in the same fashion for the rest of the yard. I explained that we were very unhappy with the workmanship, and he asked if we wanted him to rip it up and do it again - I replied yes. He initially said we would have to pay extra, but I stood my ground and he relented. During this conversation I repeated several times that I did not want to see any gaps exceeding 20mm, but to aim for 10-15mm as the norm, and he agreed.
I also raised the issue with him that having measured distances between the house, fence and edges of the admiral star pattern, that there was a 1:30 run out of square on the edges. I asked if he would be able to lay in a way that this could not be noticed and he assured me he could.
Well, the next day I went through these details again with this co-worker (who generally arrived long before he did), and made it clear about what we wanted (the same standard as the patio).
When we arrived home that night we were pleasantly surprised to see much better workmanship, although some of the gaps were 30-35mm. I was prepared to let one or two go, however the next morning I re-iterated that if any further stones were laid with such a big gap we would reject the work. He had not done anthing about the star pattern at this point, and the run he had laid was still about 1.5 feet away from the edges.
The next day he layed some more stone near the patio, and adjacent to the star pattern. He had cut some stones at angles to make them fit. When we saw this, it was very noticable that the star was out of square, and we reluctantly asked him to please re-lay it square (since that's what he should have done to start with). He was not very happy about it, but he agreed to.
The star was re-laid that day and it looked much better. He then proceed with the next piece of work.
Again he had laid some stone with large (30-40mm) gaps. When we saw him the next day we asked him to re-lay those, and not to exceed 10-15mm. He then said he didn't realise that we felt so strongly about big gaps, but he would be careful in future (I don't know how I could have communicated it any more strongly without shouting it at him :( ).
The next section was laid very nicely - no complaints.
The next section - nearing the end - guess what? - In one section he had 30-35mm gaps, then as he approached the wall he had to cut stone to fit - I just could not understand how he could ignore such simple requests. Both my wife and I were starting to feel weary with the whole process at this stage though (5 weeks since beginning, my wife having to leave home each day and loiter elsewhere while he worked), and we decided to let it pass, and hope that when it was pointed it would not be too noticable.
The final section laid was a small path to our rear gate (1mx3m), and the work was not great, but it was acceptable (20-25mm)gaps, not all stones square - this was using the smaller stones.
Some of the stone was left several weeks unpointed at this stage. and the first 5 weeks of weather (aug, sept) was fantastic. The only stone that had been pointed at this stage was the patio area, which was a wet-mix and had only been done because we had badgered him so we could use the area.
Finally he came with some extra workers and did all the pointing in 2 days using a dry mix. He claims to use extra concrete in his mix to make it work better.
The rain had begun now and he had to point on dry days (2 days 3 days apart).
We gave the point 3 days before using the area, and our usage is only light pedestrian traffic. But we notices that some of the stones were loose - some with a small hard to notice wobble, some a very bad wobble.
The pointing also had not seemed to set properly, and was flaking, and falling apart - some areas worse than others.
We called the landscaper back and asked him to correct it. He came and inspected the problem, then came back to me with the following statements:
1. He agreed the work was faulty and needed fixing.
2. He demanded that I be present while he did the repairs so that I could approve the work then and there.
3. He demanded that my wife not be present.
4. He demanded that the final payment be made before he would proceed. At this stage I had paid 3000 out of 3500, and at the advice of Marshalls (we spoke to them about it), we refused this final payment until the work was fixed. At this point he said he would have to get further advice, and get back to me.
The next day he contacted me and agreed that he would do the work ASAP without first receiving the final payment, but all other conditions held. He then said that he would be coming around that afternoon to barricade the yard off from the patio so that our children could not disturb the work whilst he was working. After barricading the area he would 'make contact' with me and plan the next step.
I replied that I was very unhappy with setting up a barricade until we agreed when the work was going to be done, because I was concerned that it might be weeks or months before the work was done. He said he couldn't give me an estimate of when he could do the work because he was too busy to work it out. I asked him to work it out and get back to me.
That was a month ago and I have not heard from him yet. sigh.
Now to my questions:
1. given the current weather conditions, is it unreasonable to expect him to do the work successfully until the weather clears?
2. Should we be expecting this to not happen until spring?
3. Since the rain has increased, we have now noticed a large puddle forming (2mx3m) and about 10-25mm deep where the light paving joins to the patio area (event the nicely laid patio looks like the run hasn't been set properly). I thought it was standard practice to make the runoff away from the house and not have puddles, and in any case we explicitly asked him to plan the runoff away from the house towards the fence, which he agreed to.
4. How much work is likely to be involved to fix the puddle?
5. How much work is likely to be involved to fix the pointing.
6. How much work is involved to fix each wobbly stone.
7. What is reasonable for us to expect from him in terms of quality (he is a marshals gold-member)
We really want an amicable solution, but at the moment we feel that we have paid a small fortune (8500 in total) for a job to be done well, and it has been almost ruined by his current workmanship.
We really need some professional advice about what is fair in terms of our own expectations, so that we can approach him with confidence. For example is it fair to be fitted around other jobs he is currently doing when he still hasn't finished ours?
As a last resort I guess we could get someone else to come and fix the job, but the way I see it, that would open up a pandora's box of legal issues, who would honour guarantees etc.
Your advice in this area would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Toomuchcoffee
Patio problems
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84-1093879891
Well, that's a comprehensive report...I'll take your questions one at a time....
1. given the current weather conditions, is it unreasonable to expect him to do the work successfully until the weather clears?
Yes - but I get the feeling he won't return when the good weather does. :(
2. Should we be expecting this to not happen until spring?
If we got a reasonable spell, then there's no reason why it couldn't be done anytime. The two killers are Frost and Rain, but if we experience a couple or three days of dry weather with temps no lower than 4C, then that would be OK.
3. Since the rain has increased, we have now noticed a large puddle forming.
Then the paving should be relaid to the correct falls.
4. How much work is likely to be involved to fix the puddle?
Without seeing the job, I can't really say, but it could be perhaps half a day.
5. How much work is likely to be involved to fix the pointing.
It all needs re-doing, from the sound of it. A good tradesman and labourer should be able to point around 100-150m2 per day.
6. How much work is involved to fix each wobbly stone.
It's often easier and quicker to take up and relay a larger srea rather than fart around lifting and relaying individual flags, but estimate 10 mins per flag, maximum.
7. What is reasonable for us to expect from him in terms of quality (he is a marshals gold-member)
A damn sight more than you've experienced to date. If this contractor is giving you the runaround, and from what you say, it would seem he is, then get Marshalls in to resolve the matter. That's what they get paid for with these 'Approved Contractor' schemes.
All the companies that organise these Approved Contractor scams, oops, I mean "schemes", are happy enough trumpeting their value to householders and the "peace of mind" that allegedly comes with insurance-backed guarantees of quality, but there remains a disturbing gap between their laudable aspirations and the actuality.
Marshalls are a reputable company (and they don't pay me to say that!) and if you've been 'done' by one of their members, I'm sure they'd want to find a resolution. Have you put all this in writing to them? Have you had any response?
Let us know how you get on.
1. given the current weather conditions, is it unreasonable to expect him to do the work successfully until the weather clears?
Yes - but I get the feeling he won't return when the good weather does. :(
2. Should we be expecting this to not happen until spring?
If we got a reasonable spell, then there's no reason why it couldn't be done anytime. The two killers are Frost and Rain, but if we experience a couple or three days of dry weather with temps no lower than 4C, then that would be OK.
3. Since the rain has increased, we have now noticed a large puddle forming.
Then the paving should be relaid to the correct falls.
4. How much work is likely to be involved to fix the puddle?
Without seeing the job, I can't really say, but it could be perhaps half a day.
5. How much work is likely to be involved to fix the pointing.
It all needs re-doing, from the sound of it. A good tradesman and labourer should be able to point around 100-150m2 per day.
6. How much work is involved to fix each wobbly stone.
It's often easier and quicker to take up and relay a larger srea rather than fart around lifting and relaying individual flags, but estimate 10 mins per flag, maximum.
7. What is reasonable for us to expect from him in terms of quality (he is a marshals gold-member)
A damn sight more than you've experienced to date. If this contractor is giving you the runaround, and from what you say, it would seem he is, then get Marshalls in to resolve the matter. That's what they get paid for with these 'Approved Contractor' schemes.
All the companies that organise these Approved Contractor scams, oops, I mean "schemes", are happy enough trumpeting their value to householders and the "peace of mind" that allegedly comes with insurance-backed guarantees of quality, but there remains a disturbing gap between their laudable aspirations and the actuality.
Marshalls are a reputable company (and they don't pay me to say that!) and if you've been 'done' by one of their members, I'm sure they'd want to find a resolution. Have you put all this in writing to them? Have you had any response?
Let us know how you get on.
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toomuchcoffee
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 11:18 pm
Hi again,
Thanks for your previous response. Since then the following has happened:
1. Since we had not heard from the contractor for about 6 weeks my wife rang hime and left a voicemail saying that if we didn't hear from him in the next couple of days we would have to proceed with legal action.
2. Surprise, surprise he rang me the next morning - apparantly he had been on holidays for 2 weeks which is why he could contact me during the six weeks??
3. He arrange to come for a site inspection the following weekend to discuss things.
4. He came for an inspection and suggested a french drain where the puddle was. I was not happy with this suggestion because it would have been unsightly and we felt it would not solve the problem completely.
5. He agreed that the pointing needed re-doing on many sections, and that the loose stones would have to be relaid.
6. I said I would get advice from other landscapers about french drains and get back to him. I rang marshals and they said it was a bad idea and that he should re-lay the area affected.
7. He asked me to get back to him after I had decided whether to go ahead with the french drains or not.
8. I rang him last week and said we were not happy with a french drain and that marshalls had advised against it. We would like the area re-laid.
9. He asked me to put what we wanted in writing and our own suggestions of how to go about it??
Well, we are a little hesitant too suggest how to do his own workmanship because we feel we may be entering dodgy legal grounds for recourse - can you comment on this at all?
In terms of a response I had something like the following in mind:
Dear contractor,
Currently there are 3 main issues with our landscaping works that need to be addressed:
1. Many areas of pointing are substandard and falling apart.
2. Some of the stones laid are loose.
3. A large puddle forms near our patio because the lay of the stone does not go away from the house.
I am not a landscaper, however based on reading the stone suppliers guide for beginners I believe the following needs to be done to rectify the problem:
1. Re-do all the pointing, not just the evident crumbling sections so that there is a consistent look. Whatever changes you need to make so that it doesn't fall apart this time, please do.
2. Re-lay all the loose stones, and point asap after re-laying the stones.
3. If you are not capable yourself, employ the services of someone who can help identify a correct lay away from the house. Re-lay all stones necessary so that water falls away from the house to the edges of the property. Employ any other best-practice techniques here to avoid other problems from where the water will now fall to.
4. Do the above steps in a sensible order so that you do not have to repeat yourself.
As a final note, we have already paid for all materials to do the original work. We expect you to cover the costs of any additional materials required due to your own faulty workmanship.
End letter.
Tony, Can you please comment on any pertinent points from the above.
Thanks
Toomuchcoffee
Thanks for your previous response. Since then the following has happened:
1. Since we had not heard from the contractor for about 6 weeks my wife rang hime and left a voicemail saying that if we didn't hear from him in the next couple of days we would have to proceed with legal action.
2. Surprise, surprise he rang me the next morning - apparantly he had been on holidays for 2 weeks which is why he could contact me during the six weeks??
3. He arrange to come for a site inspection the following weekend to discuss things.
4. He came for an inspection and suggested a french drain where the puddle was. I was not happy with this suggestion because it would have been unsightly and we felt it would not solve the problem completely.
5. He agreed that the pointing needed re-doing on many sections, and that the loose stones would have to be relaid.
6. I said I would get advice from other landscapers about french drains and get back to him. I rang marshals and they said it was a bad idea and that he should re-lay the area affected.
7. He asked me to get back to him after I had decided whether to go ahead with the french drains or not.
8. I rang him last week and said we were not happy with a french drain and that marshalls had advised against it. We would like the area re-laid.
9. He asked me to put what we wanted in writing and our own suggestions of how to go about it??
Well, we are a little hesitant too suggest how to do his own workmanship because we feel we may be entering dodgy legal grounds for recourse - can you comment on this at all?
In terms of a response I had something like the following in mind:
Dear contractor,
Currently there are 3 main issues with our landscaping works that need to be addressed:
1. Many areas of pointing are substandard and falling apart.
2. Some of the stones laid are loose.
3. A large puddle forms near our patio because the lay of the stone does not go away from the house.
I am not a landscaper, however based on reading the stone suppliers guide for beginners I believe the following needs to be done to rectify the problem:
1. Re-do all the pointing, not just the evident crumbling sections so that there is a consistent look. Whatever changes you need to make so that it doesn't fall apart this time, please do.
2. Re-lay all the loose stones, and point asap after re-laying the stones.
3. If you are not capable yourself, employ the services of someone who can help identify a correct lay away from the house. Re-lay all stones necessary so that water falls away from the house to the edges of the property. Employ any other best-practice techniques here to avoid other problems from where the water will now fall to.
4. Do the above steps in a sensible order so that you do not have to repeat yourself.
As a final note, we have already paid for all materials to do the original work. We expect you to cover the costs of any additional materials required due to your own faulty workmanship.
End letter.
Tony, Can you please comment on any pertinent points from the above.
Thanks
Toomuchcoffee
-
84-1093879891
Well, the 're-assurance' that comes from the "Approved Contractor" scheme wasn't worth a great deal, was it? You employed a contractor on the strength of his 'approval rating' from a nationally recognised company, and yet, when you have proiblems with the contractor, they more or less leave it to you to sort out! But then, you've not paid 300 and odd quid to be on their 'Approved' list, have you? ;)
Here's the sort of thing I'd write....
We are deeply concerned with the following aspects of the work you have undertaken at our home.
1 - Large areas of pointing are sub-standard and are already beginning to crumble and deteriorate.
2 - Some of the paving units laid are loose and move when walked upon.
3 - An area of paving near the patio is ponding in wet weather because the falls are inadequate.
I make no claim to be a professional paving contractor, but, having researched this matter and spoken to the manufacturers and a paving consultant, I would suggest the following snagging list as a fair indication of what is expected.
a - all loose pavings to be lifted and re-laid so that they are firm and stable.
b - lift the area of paving that is currently ponding and re-lay it as required to generate sufficient falls to drain away any surface water from the house to a suitable disposal point. It may be necessary to lift and re-lay paving that is not currently ponding to achieve the required falls.
c - cut out all existing pointing to a depth of not less than 25mm and re-point the entire project in a suitable Class II mortar to achieve a consistent and professional finish to the works.
If you feel your staff are not capable of carrying out these essential remedial works, then we will require you to bring in a suitably competent contractor to carry out these works at your own expense. The cost of any and all labour, plant and materials must be borne by yourselves, as these problems have arisen solely as a result of faulty worksmanship by your employees. We expect this work to be commenced within the next 4 weeks and completed within one working week, weather permitting. Should you have any queries regarding this work, then you should seek clarification from us at the first oppportunity. However, we employed your company as a professional paving contractor and we expect you to use your skills and experience to bring about a speedy and satisfactory conclusion to this project.
Feel free to use or discard, edit or add as you see fit, and cc it to Marshalls when you send it to him.
Keep me informed. :)
Here's the sort of thing I'd write....
We are deeply concerned with the following aspects of the work you have undertaken at our home.
1 - Large areas of pointing are sub-standard and are already beginning to crumble and deteriorate.
2 - Some of the paving units laid are loose and move when walked upon.
3 - An area of paving near the patio is ponding in wet weather because the falls are inadequate.
I make no claim to be a professional paving contractor, but, having researched this matter and spoken to the manufacturers and a paving consultant, I would suggest the following snagging list as a fair indication of what is expected.
a - all loose pavings to be lifted and re-laid so that they are firm and stable.
b - lift the area of paving that is currently ponding and re-lay it as required to generate sufficient falls to drain away any surface water from the house to a suitable disposal point. It may be necessary to lift and re-lay paving that is not currently ponding to achieve the required falls.
c - cut out all existing pointing to a depth of not less than 25mm and re-point the entire project in a suitable Class II mortar to achieve a consistent and professional finish to the works.
If you feel your staff are not capable of carrying out these essential remedial works, then we will require you to bring in a suitably competent contractor to carry out these works at your own expense. The cost of any and all labour, plant and materials must be borne by yourselves, as these problems have arisen solely as a result of faulty worksmanship by your employees. We expect this work to be commenced within the next 4 weeks and completed within one working week, weather permitting. Should you have any queries regarding this work, then you should seek clarification from us at the first oppportunity. However, we employed your company as a professional paving contractor and we expect you to use your skills and experience to bring about a speedy and satisfactory conclusion to this project.
Feel free to use or discard, edit or add as you see fit, and cc it to Marshalls when you send it to him.
Keep me informed. :)