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Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:59 pm
by williams
Is it actually going to come into force as of October? I cant find anything new on it.
I have also been told by a contractor that it will only be houses which have NO existing driveways which will need planning or permeable paving and that existing drives can be extended and replaced.He works around derby and thats apparantly what his local council told him.
However i,m in essex and am not sure whats happening as the council know nothing.
cheers
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:33 am
by Dave_L
It's an absolute shambles at the moment!
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:26 pm
by williams
I spoke to chelmsfod council today to be told
it will be coming in october,it will probably affect any drive to be paved
southend council told me
its coming in august and it may not be for all drives.
they basically know nothing and are not sure whats happening.
Great for people like us.and now i,m really panicking as i have work booked up for october.
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:43 am
by Tony McC
No-one, other than the twonks at Defra, know exactly what will be required. The proposal issued during the Spring is dire, but is the only clue we have to date as to what we can expect come October.
As reported in other threads and in my blog, the original proposal document, plus my submission can be downloaded from this site, but until Defra publishes its response, none of us know for certain just what will be required.
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:08 pm
by Injured
So it will be something that will be brought in through the back door and will be a total shambles because only 50% of people will know about it and no one will be prepared for it.
But how can they police it and know what has been done and when and how big the existing area was??
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:27 pm
by Tony McC
They can't police it; Defra will be relying on local Building Control, who are already over-stretched and under-funded. As I've said previously, this will become a rogue's charter unless it is properly controlled. It can't be properly controlled, so making it mandatory is a nonsense.
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:57 pm
by williams
I think they will police it with fear,i.e the homeowners will not do it for fear of the council coming along and ripping it up.
I just can't see the likes of marshalls and Bretts taking it rolling over surely it has the potential to really upset their buisness?
I,m just not sure if its going to actually be brought in,its meant to be in October but the councils know nothing except it's meant to be happening.
What do you think Tony?
cheers
Jasper
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:59 pm
by Tony McC
Many of the better manufacturers are providing some form of training to interested contractors, which is all well and good, but does not address the problems of ...
1) is concrete block permeable paving really the best option for any given project?
2) is the generic specification promoted by each of the manufacturers actually suitable for every given project?
As block manufacturers, they are obviously keen to see CBPP installed as widely as possible, and certainly in preference to PIC, bitmac, resin, etc., but the key issue of the proposed action should be sustainability of the drainage, and not whether the surfacing is permeable or not. CBPP is being promoted as the answer, but it is the answer to a different question. As long as surface water is disposed of in accordance with the principles of SUDS, it really doesn't/shouldn't matter what surface/paving has been installed. Along with training lads how to lay CBPP, we should be training them to install soakaways, swales and rain gardens, but the training group is too busy pondering its own navel and the opportunity is being lost.
Secondly: the use of generic designs. These are used because the manufacturers need to offer contractors a simple 'design' that they can use on the majority of residential projects. Although we might not want to admit it, the paving trade isn't overpopulated with mathematicians, engineers or structural designers, and it's unrealistic to expect all contractors to be able to do the sums regarding soil permeability, run-off, storage capacity, etc. Hence the generic design: a spec that works for most drives, on most houses, in most parts of the country, most of the time, mostly.
To achieve this, the design has to be over-engineered, as too much capacity isn't a problem, whereas too little would lead to surcharging and/or flooding. Consequently, most of the 'off-the-shelf' specs being offered by manufacturers tend to be OTT. This results in additional (possibly unnecessary) excavation, plus the associated cart away, plus the extra clean aggs to build-up levels, all of which bumps up the cost, but we can't be sure it is actually warranted on any particular job because we are not training enough contractors to do the (very basic) sums that are needed to create site-specific designs. Again, this should have been addressed by the training group months ago, but wasn't, and probably won't be until after the proposed nonsense is enacted. I think that's what they call shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
So, the manufacturers don't see the imposition of this proposal as a threat to their business, but as an opportunity to replace some of their low-cost/low-profit standard paving with higher-cost/higher profit permeable paving blocks. That's why you don't hear *any* of them speaking up for SUDS paving rather than permeable paving.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:40 pm
by Slabba.
With permeable paving installations being approx 40% more expensive who`s gonna have one!! Its all $£#ked up.
Tony, surely this is all about the run off of water into the system, so why not just install a big soakaway. Job done. Depending on ground conditions of course.
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:54 pm
by williams
I did a test the other day on how permeable the ground in my area is. Guess what? Its heavy clay and a week later its still sitting there.
This will either make no difference to me or destroy people in our area as pumped water tanks will cost a fortune.
I still don't know if its really going to happen as no body knows anything and its meant to be happening in a couple of months.
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:29 am
by Tony McC
I agree with Slabba that, if a big soakaway (or other SuDS installtion) is used, there's nothing gained by insisting on permeable paving, and I have said as much in my submission to DEFRA.
As for Williams' clay, again, this is a factor that seems to have been blithely overlooked, so far, by the proposal.
Still no word from the faceless ones driving this proposal: it's becoming less of a farce and more of a potential disaster with each passing day.
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:52 am
by Injured
Does the fact that they are not saying anything mean it will come into force or that they are still thinking over the proposals??:rock:
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:58 pm
by Tony McC
Given that this is a politically driven proposal, I'm sure summat will happen, as politicians have no qualms whatsoever about introducing bollocks legislation rather than being seen to back down and admit they've not properly thought it through (think of the beloved poll tax).
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:40 pm
by Injured
do you think it only applies to drives or will it affect new patios at the rear of properties too???
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:12 pm
by williams
Injured wrote:do you think it only applies to drives or will it affect new patios at the rear of properties too???
I don't think even the people making the rules know what they will be going to implement.
There off on their 3 month holidays now so i cant see a lot happening soon.