Urgent advice sought - What to do - job halfway through

[worried]

Hello - firstly I'd like to say what an excellent site - I wish I'd found it a few weeks ago!

I have a Marshalls approved Installer installing my 130 sq m drive right now. The kerbs are down, the material is on site and the blocking will start today. My concern is this :-
- does the Marshalls Register mean anything
- should Tegula Drivesett Kerbs be secured with haunches [a lot] less than half the height of the kerb - somewhere on the site it indicates this and I have nothing like this right now.
- following haunching should I be able to lift out some of the kerbs - the concrete was set! Will the blocks being laid secure these?
- should tegula drivesett kerbs protrude more than half the height from the block paving - a lot higher than what we have asked for by the way.
- should I expect the edges to be level (with a spirit level) or is this usually done by eye 'because the ground is not level'

Yesterday I had to argue that the edging built was not level - it had what I can only describe as a 'roller coaster section' - it looked terrible (and these are soem of the more expensive blocks protruding higher than we asked for - just to accentuate the problem!). I had 5 guys and myself looking at the roller coaster and finally one of them said he could see what I was talking about and eventually the section was relaid - it's now OK but not great - I wouldn't normally accept anything less than level but we're at the stage where realtions are strained.

So.....after a bit of a sleepless night here's my dilemma :-
- do I let them get on with it and hope for the best and attempt to oversee the completion (I took half day off work yesterday and considering trying to get today/tomorrow off)
- do I stop the job and try and get someone else (this is major stress I could do without right now)
- what, if any, comeback will I have with Marshalls and their register?

You think 'Register' and I think of doctors and other professionals who have undergone some rigourous training but what does this mean - my confidence is falling fast!

Thanks in advance.
;-(

[Tony McC]

First of all, you owe me a tenner for coming out with the penalty phrase "I wish I'd found this site weeks ago". Due to massive overuse of this phrase, I've had to start issuing on-the-spot fines to restrict its use.

The Marshalls Register - Mmmm. I;ve written about this scheme, and those of a similar nature, elsewhere on the website, but, to summarise, while these "Registers" do remove much of the chaff, there are always a few who get through. What concerns me most of all is that these schemes generate income for the list administrators, so there's a financial incentive to sign up as many so-called contractors as is possible, and no incentive to boot out the cowboys.

There isn't time for me to launch into my usual tirade about how these lists should be truly independent and open to external assessment, and how they should publish data on the number of clowns booted out, and how there should be some form of standardised assessment before adding a contractor to the list, and....but that's for another time.

For now, all i can say is that there's less chance of ending up with a cowboy if you choose a contractor from one of these lists than there would be if you stuck a pin in the phonebook, so they DO have some merit.

Next: if you have concerns about a contractor on the Marshalls Register, (MR) then you should contact the list administrator. I will send you a telephone number via Personal Message - look for a flashing icon near the top right corner of the page. It's not fair for me to comment on work I haven't seen, and given that you will be paying a premium for using the services of a MR member, then you should get your money's worth.

However, flying through your comments....

Haunching kerbs - haunch should come to roughly 50mm short of the top of the kerb. Halfway up the kerbs would be an absolute minimum.

Once haunbched, kerbs should be pretty secure. There's no great need for the kerbs to be 'stuck' to the bed or haunch, but you shouldn't be able to lift them out without a bit of a struggle.

Height of kerbs - up to you. You can have any amount of upstand you wish, from 15mm to 150mm or even more. It's a matter of personal taste, but the contractor should endeavour to lay them in a way you find aesthetically pleasing unless there is some good reason not to do so.

Edges level? I'm not sure what you mean. The edge courses should follow lines of fall and look aesthetically pleasing, but without seeing the site (or a photie at the very least) I can't really comment.


At this stage I would suggest that you should put your concerns in writing and pass them on to the boss, not to one of the young lads or lasses. If you still feel unnerved, then call MR and tell them to get someone out to you within 24 hours or you will call a halt to the job.

[worried]

Thanks Tony - I did speak to Marshalls and they did sound concerned about the haunches which are about 30% of the height of the kerb with little or no sub-base (listen to me and my new found 'knowledge'...) and even just earth in a couple of places - sent them some pics and they said they will send an inspector out but not until next week after job is finished.

Learning curve and a big one - buyer beware eh?

I will console myself with the 'at least nobody died' thoughts.

On a positive note, the blocks are being laid and the colour scheme we chose is cracking and the drive does *look* pretty good and I will learn to live with the slight dips and rises in the kerbs and if the kerbs don't fall apart then I will probably ask myself what all the fuss was about.

Time will tell.....to take the guarantee or not...decisions decisions?

ps. send me your account details and I will pay the mandatory penalty phrase fine - fair cop

[worried]

OK - a few months on and I think it's time I recounted my story to the block paving consumers out there as the 'season' is about to start I guess...

First the job is finished and it looks 'OK' - I'm not a perfectionist but I do have standards and it could have been a lot better.

The whole process was frought from start to finish and you find yourself lowering standards when all you seem to do is fight with the contractor every day.

I suppose contractors are contractors though - some bad, some good but how do you find a good one? I chose to go with Marshalls and their recommended Register of Approved Installers. "can't go wrong!" I thought - especially when you read their glossy brochures and website you become convinced that you'll get a good job - it even says so in the blurb :-

Marshalls Register Installers agree to abide by Marshalls stringent code of practice and standards of workmanship. So you can be sure they'll do a good job

So...when I saw that the kerbs being laid at the edge of our driveway looked like a roller coster I contacted Marshalls Technical (now they are a different kettle of fish to the Register folk). They agreed that the pictures indicated uneveness but were more concerned at the construction of the foundations which they told me looked inadequate.

I contacted the register and asked to see the guidelines for installation - eventually they sent me them. Sure enough - the foundations were nowhere near the spec in the installers handbook. I pointed this out to the contractor (another day another fight) who's attititude was that the spec was too high. In then end I ended up getting the contractor to mix tons of cement and I re-enforced the foundations myself! All in all I had to take about 3 days off my work.

Throughout the job I was asking the Manager of the Register (day after day) to get an inspector out to view the work. I was told that 'there would be no visit from our inspector' and that 'this was a matter between you and the contractor'. The Register manager seemed to be in denial that he was in a stronger position than I to get the situation remedied.

So....what's all this about peace of mind then? Well you can take out a guarantee you see and that covers you for 10 years. You have to pay for the priveledge of course. I chose not to - I don't want the contractor anywhere near my house ever again. When I asked Marshalls if I could take the guarantee with another contractor I was initally told I could but then the paperwork arrived and it was with our original contractor - I called and was told that this was all that was on offer.

So, you may ask, how did our dodgy contractor appear on the approved installers list? Well, what the blurb dousn't mention is that each one has to pay £400 to get on it every year. They also need recommendations from a few 'customers' but how stringent those checks are I would question (our contractor did a couple of things which would make you laugh...or cry in our case). So, Marshalls get a few quid up front and then they have a whole network of guys who turn up on your doorstep with a Marshalls brochure and a Marshalls sticker on the side of their van showing you Marshalls wares -some of you may call this sort of person a 'salesman' - in this case an unpaid one. In return the 'salesman' can and will charge a premium for his work - he's better than the rest you see - at least that's the general impression you'll get.

So it's a win/win situation for both Marshalls (more sales of paving through their 'sales' network) and the contractor (who'll get more work and work that will pay better). Not everyone wins though - the loser is the consumer - you and I.

At least...this is my take on it. I am sure that the Register does have reputable contractors but I'm just recounting my experience and in particular that with the Register - it's nothing more than a sales mechanism in my opinion.

On the other hand the blocks Marshalls make are cracking and their tech dept is also very good.

To round off and para-phrase Tony Blair - the 3 most important things when selecting a driveway installer :-

1. word of mouth
2. word of mouth
3. word of mouth

and Jim Royle :-

Marshalls Register - peace of mind? My .....

[Tony McC]

I wish I could tell you that yours is an isolated case, but I can't. As long as there is a financial relationship between the list organiser and the contractor, its integrity is compromised. No list organiser wants to lose contractors gullible enough to pay 400+ quid a year for the privilege of having the manufacturer's name on the side of their van, and that's the harsh reality of all of these pay-to-join manufacturer-controlled approved lists.

I know how stressed you were when we spoke on the phone, and I'm really disappointed to hear that the Register crowd didn't really put themselves out in any way to help you, as even a blind man on a galloping horse looking at the photos you sent to me could tell the work was seriously sub-standard, and, as you said, you were paying a premium precisely to avoid this sort of scenario.

And has this contractor been booted off the list, or has he been allowed to hand over another 400-quid to continue fleecing customers for another year? Sadly, the list organisers will not reveal what happens to anyone found to be incompetent, nor will they reveal how many contractors have been refused or expelled for sub-standard work.

Until they can prove the scheme has some integrity, and that it has real teeth, it's not worth the vast amounts of glossy paper it's printed on!

[worried]

Hi Tony,

I just checked on the Marshalls website - contractor still listed.

I will send you a full transcript of my email conversation with the Register manager - I just read it again and it all does beggar belief. As you will see, in desperation I even copied his entire line management right up to the MD.

I should stress that whilst I am not happy with the way the job was handled by the contractor, I feel more angry with the Register people as the only reason I used him was because of them and their reassuring blurb. Ggggrrrrrrrrr!

Several weeks after the job was finished and I had parted with the cash, I did receive a visit from a Marshalls technical dept. member. A very nice chap who reassured me that we'd get the guarantee sorted with another contractor and that in his opinion the work that I had done had probably made the job a good 'un (sub base is well and truly covered though so how he could tell??). As you'll see from the above, when the paperwork arrived - no such luck with the guarantee.

So that's that. I just hope and prey that I don't have to add to this post in a few years to let you and everyone else know that the kerbs have fallen apart. Unlikely, as I did ensure that there was s***loads of concrete in the haunchings but this still means that underneath the kerbs there is very little in the way of sub-base..

Time will tell...

Again - great site. Next time I may have a bash myself (and if my drive does fall apart I know where to come to find out how to fix it

Anyhow, time for a pint - my recollecting this episode has led to a rise in my blood pressure.....

[creativebuild]

dear worried

I know this is a late reply but I thought I would lay your mind at rest that there are good guys out here.
I am a builder who never advertises and is always busy. My work comes from recomendation (and sometimes site board and signed van). I am NOT a member of the marshalls register as paying 400 quid a year to say you might be good is not right. However I am a member of our local councils (sutton) building confidence scheme as it is run by the trading standards. I constantly have to fight clients perception that all builders are not cowboys and many of us are just trying to make a living. So please dont be dispondent and i wish you sucess with any future projects.:laugh:

[danensis]

Which Sutton is that then?

[dig dug dan]

I Have to say, I looked into joining the marshalls register. but looked away again. Apart from the £400, all they ask for is a couple of references, and they dont bother to check up your work. All the register is , is another way for them to make money. They do not remove contractors from the list, as they get £400 from them. Once the driveway has been laid, Marshalls have their money from the materials, so what do they care.
A rep at my BM told me that you HAVE to use marshalls products if you are on the register, even if the customer wants something else.
The other problem with marshalls is that it is too expensive, and the only place you can buy it from (round here)is travis bloody perkins
Another reason to avoid marshalls.
There are so many alternatives out there, that tony has pointed out, that it is time People stopped thinking that because someone has laid a few marshalls blocks, they must be experts.
The sooner the register is stopped and a more universal scheme is adopted, preferably by an independant company, the Better

[rms]

A Gap in the market? Could you make a profit if you charged £200 annually for evaluating contractors?

[Tony McC]

Dan has mentioned most of the shortcomings of the "pay-to-join" schemes. However, any scheme that is tied to a single manufacturer can never be perceived as impartial. We need an industry-wide scheme, one that recognises the skills rather than the materials, and one with "clear blue water" between the manufacturers and the contractors. As long as certain manufacturers continue to make money from their own branded schemes, we have almost zero chance of garnering sufficient support to set up such a scheme. These companies are putting their profits before the reputation of the wider trade.

However, there are some enlightened manufacturers that are keen to see an independent scheme, and would be willing to fund it, on condition that other, similar-sized manufacturers did the same. The stumbling block is that a small number of larger manufacturers are quite happy with the staus quo, where money flows in to their coffers, and not the other way.

However, discussions are on-going, behind the scenes and very much in private, but there's a hint of a whiff of a chance that something might be set up to represent independent contractors in both Britain and Ireland. Watch this space.

[dig dug dan]

To whom are you referring to Rms?



Edited By dig dug dan on 1142173201

[creativebuild]

sutton in surrey

[worried]

Sorry Tony - just unashamedly making sure this remains near the top of the list!

Wouldn't want folk making the same mistake as I did...

[danensis]

and what news of the scheme?