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Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:09 pm
by OldSchool
I constructed a new walkway using 100 year old bricks in Seattle.
Its on about the same parallel as London or so 47th parallel. Being close to the Pacific Coast we get of Rain like England and Ireland and Scotland. On the other side of the cascade mountains we actually have desert. It sometimes snows here several feet.
The walkway I built on about 8" of gravel and an inch of sand.
Then used non shrink grout what is mostly pure cement with some sand in it. Specifically the brand Duragrout. I just swept it in the cracks and watered it down. Red House Finches come from Mexico in the Summer and breed here. They seem to get something out of the grout as they peck it or the brick I believe the grout. So I am not entirely sure I want to seal this with something.
The problem with the old bricks is some of them are permeable to water it seems and will form ice on top of them in the winter tht appears to come right out of the brick. I have read some people that used a sealant had problems with ice and snow in Michigan after sealing with a gloss I think PU product.
Having read your sealant section I did not see any references to sealants and ICE. So I am not sure if its a bad idea to try and seal these anyway. Any suggestions on such an application would be appreciated. The birds may not appreciate sealant too.
Photo at link below.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/143/07312011.jpg/
Some where on the web I found a sealant that was 1/2 PU and 1/2 water based. Supposedly this made it a better product so they claimed.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:25 pm
by lutonlagerlout
old school, welcome to the brew cabin 
firstly your weather is massively different to the uk
we get less than half the rain you get :;):
we just moan about it more
your path looks like a fairly straightforward semi block pave construction
ideally you should have left 3/8th joints and filled these with mortar
the birds are pecking the sand out as birds are wont to do
i would wait till its dry and re sand the path using kiln dried sand
as for sealants? why bother?
if the bricks are 100 yrs old they hardly need sealing
all the best
LLL
Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:14 am
by OldSchool
its dry now but I expect its going to rain all day tomorrow and tonight. It may dry out some next week. Actually what I am looking at is I just put in some others behind that in the parking strip between the sidewalk and the street curb. As we had problems with ice coming out of the bricks and some "spalding" if thats the correct term where they have a 1/2" of the top of the brick slough off from freeze and thaw. I have replaced some due to that.
These bricks came from a very old house/store that was taken down to be replaced by a 5 story wood frame on post tension slab. It took up an entire block from East to West replacing several houses one a former girlfriend rented a unit in. Probably not modern firebrick quality. They vary in size and weight. What happens is the bricks seem to absorb water and then in frost they will do similar to the ground and produce a 1/4 " of ice just on a a few during a cold dry spell.
I am thinking when you say resand it. You mean to apply a new layer of mortar too it so the bricks are not slippery and to fill in the gaps.
Can you please elaborate on sanding or resanding / and the kiln dried sand I have seen mentioned elsewhere in forums?
I am framer by trade not a mason and thought I have been a construction superintendent. Those stair treads quite heavy at 4' were recycled from one of the razed houses on the same block. I actually am trained for IT work and have built airplanes too. A framer here is a rough frame carpenter and with enough experience makes a good residential project construction superintendent.
I actually worked for an English guy here many years back. I know the terminology may vary. From watching this old house and talking to people that live back East in the states they do some things very different than we do here too.
Thanks I appreciate your input, most of the forums here in the states mostly cover new material applications. Though they do sell recycled bricks for about a buck a each. A" buck" comes from Buckskin or deer hide which was worth one dollar at the time.
Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:40 am
by seanandruby
Hi oldschool. I am surprised your 1 inch sand hasn'nt filtered down into the gravel yet and your bricks sunk. The kiln dried used in block paving is to fill the joints of the blocks/bricks to stop movement. It's not designed to stop bricks becoming slippery. I'm not entirely sure if sealing them will stop the freeze thaw action but you can only try, other brewers who use sealant will let you know more.. Sealing needs to be done in dry weather, a good month of dry i should think. As for them being slippery you could try rhino grit ( think that's what it's called ) scattered on a bonding solution. Good luck.
you might like to read this page
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:57 pm
by OldSchool
Sorry guy's I think you misunderstood how this is constructed. Its not set in concrete like bricks in Germany are but what we commonly use here is crushed rock called (5/8s) I think as its glacial till that is crushed into 5/8" about in size that is jagged and locks together when pressed. This is the way people in the U.S. often build driveways or rural roads. The roads then get sprayed with some type of oil to keep the dust down.
Packed down it becomes quite interlocked and tight. The sand I used is just some cleaned sand to level the different heights of the brick as they varied in thickness and size so much. I drove my toyota 4x4 truck down too Lakeside industries long before I visited Salmon Bay a much larger operation on a Saturday. A guy there just estimated using a loader to dump into the back 1/2 a ton of the gravel. Turned out it was closer to a ton.
http://www.soilbuildingsystems.com/images....ull.jpg
This is kinda what it looks like loose before compaction. Most of it around here is adesite and granite that was rounded rock filtered from glacial till and then crushed.
So I ended up with a fairly thick base. Here they suggest maybe up too 4" packed in with a plate compactor. In fact what they do is when they lay large flagstones is put some small amount of sand on top of that base of gravel. Then lay the stones then put a layer of boards down and run the plate compactor on top of that to even the stones out. The boards prevent damage to the stones.
So after stamping down the gravel then a small layer of sand then the bricks I visited Salmon Bay a concrete company nearby.
The guys at the store asked what was I trying to do. And they agreed to sweep some non shrink grout in as dry powder between the various sized gaps would lock the bricks up nicely.
Non shrink grout is basically pure cement. They used to use it to install anchor bolts that werent included in a foundation's concrete wall pour before epoxies existed. It also used for leveling walls and some times mixed with sand or rock to make a specific mix. Non shrink grout is designed to not shrink in volume and hardens quickly.
http://www.lmcc.com/products/duragrout.asp
I like this brand as its a nice gray color rather than the whiter color I came across and matches concrete better.
Basic Use: DURAGROUT is used where non-shrink, high-strength, structural, durable grout is required such as: precise machine bases, pump and equipment bases, structural columns, machine tools, compressors, and anchor bolts.
So you see these bricks have something stronger than your basic mortar. I just swept it in while dry and sprinkled some water on it. Had too do it a several times to get all of it filled.
The bricks being 100 years old probably either never had any impervious nature to water or lost it. More likely the former. So if you ever see ground that where ice forms out of the dirt sticking up a 1/2 inch or more a similar thing thing happens here. I am just concerned about ppl like the postman slipping. I do put ice melt on it. So I thought there may be a way to seal it to keep more moisture out. It may not work at all.
The source of the problem may not be the bricks but the large amount of gravel below which may be acting as a water hold better than just the sandy ground. I have installed broken impervious paving materials to widen driveway without any gravel and have had no problem. Perhaps the new section I constructed in same exact bricks on just the sandy soil will also not have such an ice issue.
The ground here is mostly sand being on a prehistoric lake shore caused by a large chunk of ice sitting here pressing down for long time. Sand is good for compaction but not that great for liquefaction a process where water swells up in an earthquake causing the ground to liquefy. Being up the hill from the earlier and current lakebed probably this would not happen. But the ground does move like an ocean with waves in the Secondary waves. However any foundation would not be as well attached in sandy soil as on bedrock.
Another interesting thing about sandy soil is you can hear things from a distance away quite well. Like cars bouncing down the street on the concrete slabs in the basement. A load car radio through the basment floor a 1/4 mile away at the park.
So I guess I thought there might be a way to improve this and the other section I just put together to prevent ice from forming on the brick. Thanks for the link to the weather page about frost. I see they are using a plate compactor there too.
Ok so I guess there is no magic sand to cure this issue, thanks to all.
By the way thumbs up used to mean death in Roman times. LOL
I wonder how we got it turned around.
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:23 pm
by seanandruby
there doesn't seem to be any fines in the 5/8s old school. That is similar to what we would use as a sub base for permeable paving. You can see why i was concerned about sand dissappearing in the voids.a geo-textile would help prevent it. We wouldn't normally use a non shrink grout as you were recommended as this could have an adverse effect on the paving. Differential settlement could occur. Thanks for the history lesson
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:25 am
by WilliamEthen
Most bricks are designed to be installed with minimal maintenance for many years without any finish. Care should be taken when applying any sealer or finish to prevent the necessity for regular repeat coatings or damage to the brick veneer. Check manufacturer’s instruction very carefully and consult websites or toll free numbers from any manufacturers that claim their sealers are suitable for brick.
