The Brew Cabin

Posted: **Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:36 pm**

As the members on this forum seem by far the most knowledgable people around on the matter of the new (Oct 08) legislation covering driveways, I thought I would ask this question here.

I want to replace my current concrete driveway (which was badly installed and is falling apart) with properly installed impermeable block paving. The drive slopes down to the house. The ground here is clay. We already know that soakways in this area are completely useless (as a building regs person recently confirmed to me).

There seems to be three possibilities, all with attendant difficulties:

(1) We put in a side slight gradient to the drive so that the water ends up in a side garden bed, ie. a "rain garden" (which we already have in place).

The issue with this is whether, if the council decides to poke it's nose in, it will decide that this because this garden contains clay under the surface soil it doesn't count as permeable enough. I have read through all the literature relevant to this matter (thanks to this site for the links) and as Tony and others have pointed out, it is very unclear as to whether a clay-based rain garden counts or not.

Or do they not really care about this, as long as the water stays out of the drains?

(2) We put in drains somewhere on the drive which go to a soakaway, which has an overflow pipe to go to the main drainage/sewage system.

The soakaway will be useless, but this method may allow us to connect to the drains without having to go through planning. But there are two issues. The first is whether the council will really be happy with this if the soakaway is useless (if they find out, which they may do -- we have a nosy neighbour). The second issue is that I thought soakaways had to be at least 3 metres away from the house? If so, then it will have to be uphill of the driveway (as that slopes towards the house). But in that case, how do I get the rain water to the soakaway in the first place?

(3) Apply for planning and put in drains at the bottom of the drive that connect to the general drainage/sewage system.

Obviously we'd prefer to avoid the time and expense of planning, but there's also more specific worries. Is the council likely to say yes to this because no other method is really going to work because of the heavy clay? (Even a permeable drive wouldn't be of much use). Or is there a chance that they will say no? (The council concerned is Nottingham).

Any advice or comments on any of this would be appreciated.

Posted: **Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:27 pm**

well if the drive falls towards the house,where does the water go at present?
AFAIK if it falls away from the pavement. they have no jurisdiction
if the area is heavy clay and you can identify the foul pipe it might be best to seek planning and make a trapped connection to that run
the planning side can be a minefield ,but is the correct way forward
obviously at present the water is going somewhere,maybe identify that
regards LLL

Posted: **Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:34 pm**

At present the water mostly just sits at the bottom of the drive, near the front of the house, which is another reason for wanting to improve things (with the recent months of heavy rain this has been a real pain). It will gradually soak through the cement and through the gaps, but it's very slow.

(Also some water will go off the side of the drive onto grass, but we want to pave this grass.)

There is a drain in front of the garage which is connected to a soakaway, but this is useless. (It was all like this when we bought the house).

>AFAIK if it falls away from the pavement. they have no jurisdiction

It isn't clear to me what the situation is here. Some people seem to be saying that it's only about drives that slope to the road, but Tony's FAQ seems to be saying that it applies to any drive, and that they do have jurisdiction over anyone who wants to connect to the drains.

But if you don't connect to the drains, and your rain water doesn't run off onto the roads, do they then have any jurisdiction on how effective your attempts -- whether rain garden, soakaway, whatever -- to get rid of rain water are?

Posted: **Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:07 pm**

The million dollar question is are your councill enforcing the ruling as my council is not bothering all the contractors in this area are carrying on regardless to this stupid law, is yours? MSH

Posted: **Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:08 pm**

>The million dollar question is are your councill enforcing the ruling

Don't know, although the contractor I have spoken to says he hasn't heard of it being enforced. (I can ask the council, yes, but I wanted to get an idea of the general situation first).

Posted: **Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:39 am**

if they see you at it in luton they enforce it
the council are very funny about rainwater going in sewers (flooding) but when there are no alternatives,what are you supposed to do?
permeable drives are expensive ,and pretty pointless IMO apart from the wettest areas,i.e. docksides,or lake district,where teh water has some place to go
best just to have an informal chat to your council first
LLL

Posted: **Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:02 am**

In my town anglian water run a combined system so foul and sewer goes into same pipe, due to the high ground water at around 600mm, maybe that's why the council don't bother, but even out off town where soakaways are used its not done .
ohh well every where is different but planning should be the same nationwide MSH

Posted: **Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:47 pm**

It doesn't matter which way the existing driveway falls: the comedy law requires that, unless it is completely permeable or drained to a SUDs installation (soakaway, rain garden, swale, etc.), then you need PP to connect to the existing drainage or to drain towards the public highway.

While your Option 2 may seem (and actually is) a real bell-end of an idea, it is actually compliant with the regs, regardless of the nasal capacity of your neighbour, and is a solution I've used on a project this summer. We did try to get the clowns at DEFRA responsible for drafting the regs to realise this, but they preferred to listen to those well known drainage experts, the RHS, and so we ended up with a stupid law which results in stupid solutions.

Option 3 is also acceptable, but will cause no end of consternation at your local council, as it's odds-on that they haven't a chuffing clue what to do about the regs, but will be quite keen to relieve you of the 150 quid.

I'd go with Option 2. The "soakaway" (which need be only a single crate) can be positioned anywhere away from the house at a depth that will allow it to collect from the lowest point on the driveway (against the house from what you've told us) but still discharge to the SW system.

Posted: **Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:04 am**

soakaways should be 5 M away from the house, the best option is to run it into the foul system via a trapped gully or new IC connection
LLL

Posted: **Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:01 am**

>soakaways should be 5 M away from the house

This was a worry I had with option (2), as 5m away wouldn't be feasible. But I notice the guidelines say 3m away, which may be.

But it says 3m for small driveways -- ours is 11-12m long, don't know if that counts as small or not. (But 5m is normally required, right?)

Posted: **Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:14 pm**

Just noticed that the guidelines say "a minimum distance of 3m should be suitable". This doesn't sound like a *definite*, prescribed requirement, so what would stop me having my soakaway 2m away (which Tony seems to think is okay)? After all, no building regs inspector will need to check it.

And I can't see that there are any concerns for the building foundations. First of all, the soakaway will be small, but more importantly the clay here is so close to being impermeable that it would be like installing a pond -- so almost all the rainwater will end up in the drainage system, not in the soil.

(Sorry this topic is dragging on, but I guess this is an issue that others will have an interest in).

Posted: **Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:29 pm**

when we have done them on heavy clay,i find it better just to route the pipe straight into an IC if there is one or even install an inspection chamber on an existing run
make sure that the inlet is trapped,you don't want leaves etc.going down the sewers
and you don't want smells and rats coming out :;):
LLL

Posted: **Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:02 pm**

LLL, are you saying go to an IC/trapped gulley and then a soakaway? Or do away with the soakaway altogether and apply to the council for permission to go straight into the drainage/sewage system?

(There is an IC nearby for the sewage that we could go straight into, that would be very convenient -- if it wasn't for the need to get PP, that is).

Posted: **Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:08 pm**

the soakaway will serve no purpose in heavy clay soil,when we expose old ones they are just an underground frog farm,full of frogs and harcore
if it makes a proper connection into an IC all your troubles are washed away
LLL

Posted: **Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:05 am**

But the idea is that we would go into the drainage system *from* the soakaway via an overflow pipe (perhaps I didn't make that clear). The reason for the soakaway is just to be compliant with the rules.

So the question is, is that a bad idea?

The Brew Cabin

Installing an impermeable drive on clay