The Brew Cabin

Posted: **Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:28 pm**

Hi
Wondering if anyone can help with a multitude of questions I have on a paving project. I am going to pave over an old area using a combination of the existing base and some new base. The area will only be a patio and not subject to heavy traffic like a driveway.

Here goes:

This is the area to be done. Most of it already has a concrete base which I will be leaving alone. There are 2 other areas which I will have to fill in.
http://img181.imageshack.us/i/img0374.jpg/

The 2 areas to be filled in are the ones with mud in the above picture.

I have cleared away an old paved area as it was unlevel
http://img30.imageshack.us/i/img0379ijn.jpg/
http://img30.imageshack.us/i/img0390n.jpg/

First question:
For the 2 areas with mud, obviously I will bring them level with type 1 hardcore, then sand over both areas at once. Question is how deep should I go? 10CM seems to be recommended for driveways but will less be ok here? May main problem is getting rid of the mud I dig up, I've already spent time and money on getting rid of lots of other crap from the garden elsewhere.

This is what it looks like from an edge:
http://img199.imageshack.us/i/img0391n.jpg/

Another issue is that the paving will increase the height of the floor. I will only be paving up to my gate:
http://img150.imageshack.us/i/img0387u.jpg/

Obviously this will create a small step when you open the gate and go past it. What are the best ways around this? Maybe a sloped edge so there is no step? I would prefer to avoid a step as I can see people stumbling over it not remembering its there!
http://img199.imageshack.us/i/img0380g.jpg/
http://img200.imageshack.us/i/img0381a.jpg/

http://img36.imageshack.us/i/img0377u.jpg/

The fence will be one of the edges. it was put in by the neighbor and it seems I will have to bash away some of the concrete on my side to make it look nicer. What is the best way to do this? A chisel and hammer and just chip away at it until its back at ground level?

Finally - edging. I know with driveways you need an edge - but will I need one with a patio? my main issue is where I will put the edging. Obviously I can use the edge of the house and the shed but what about where the neighbors fence is and my gate is?

http://img8.imageshack.us/i/img0384lvr.jpg/

If you look at this picture you can see where the patio will stop - where there is a slight drop in the mud. The bit after will be turf - how do i edge it? I was going to buy some of the 'log wood' edging from B and Q to separate the patio and turf'

how would you edge the neighbors' fence?

i was hoping to not have a separate ending - just pave close as possible to all the edges and then fill with cement/sand.

i am unsure if i will be using slabs or the smaller driveway blocks yet.

thanks for any help!

Posted: **Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:20 am**

You haven't said what you'll be paving with?

Minimum depth for type 1 = 2xmax aggregate size(40mm) = 80mm

The problem you have is that your paving height will be high compared with the boundaries where the existing concrete paving is. If you use a 32-40mm thick slab and a 40mm bed then you'll be 3" higher than the concrete as a minimum, and I don't know about falls for drainage but obviously these have to be factored in.

You also seem to be talking about concrete edging and then laying the new paving on sand screed? Not really sure.

Short of taking out the concrete, you have no choice but to have a 3" step somewhere in the design.

Posted: **Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:11 pm**

I was initally going to go with slabs but now I am thinking of going for natural stone (cheap variety though).

I have dug down a bit since those pictures, i think i am at least 100m.

if i bash up the bit near the gate, can i create a slope?

if you have natural stone do you do draining (sloped) in the same way?

also if i have a layer of type 1 can i just cement natural stone straight into place? i liek the idea of that over a sand bed

Posted: **Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:49 pm**

Your bedding course should be sand AND cement, not just sand.

The methodologies for laying both formed concrete and natural stone slabs is the same. All paving needs to be designed with drainage in mind. If against a building, the paving height must be no higher than 150mm below the damp proof course.

I don't know what you mean by 'bash up a bit near the gate'. Do you mean the concrete? If so, that's not going to work - the slab + bedding course is going to be around 3" thick, you'd have to take up a lot and you'd still have a ramp.

Your paving will have four 'layers' or courses. From the lowest, the first is the sub-grade - this is the exposed ground which needs to be firm. The next is the sub-base (usually type 1), then the bedding course which is sharp/grit/coarse sand and cement, and finally the paving itself.

I know you're trying to get this done on a budget, but it might pay to get a skip or grab loader booked, rent a kango from your local hire shop and get shot of that concrete. Alternatively, rent a kango and concrete crusher to make your own sub-base and offset the cost against the waste disposal and the type 1.

Posted: **Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:12 pm**

I have thought about removing all of the concrete but the cost of removing it all and work will be too much hassle - also i am not 100% sure I will be able to get all the levels correct to make it all totally level again - so it could all be a waste of time.

I don't mind having a ramp where the step would have been. I spose the issue is what happens in the area where the paving is flat and the area in which it ramps down - i.e where the ramp starts going down how do i cover up the side of the stones that are still flat?

Posted: **Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:23 pm**

Not much you can do about that. The concrete is the ground level and you want to pave on top.

Posted: **Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:39 pm**

I am going to try and get in a small incline somehow

So just to check

I am going to put in some type 1 to level the mud with the existing concrete, then i am going to use a mixture of SAND and CEMENT (what ratio and how thick?) to lay then stones onto.

Will probably go for some budget natural stone.

Can I just lay the edges up against my shed/house and have a flat edge against the fence and an 'empty' edge where the lawn will be?

BTW can you use sand and cement mix for normal driveway blocks as well? Its easier than screeding IMO.

Posted: **Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:35 pm**

Yes to the last two questions, although I'm not quite sure what an empty edge. If it's a free edge, you'll just need to haunch the bedding course against the free edge.

For answers on how to make the sand and cement mortar there's a wealth of advice on the main site.

Posted: **Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:51 pm**

Thanks
I have the book on order - will give that a proper read over when I get it.

With the natural stone that is buff/smooth - is there any real dannger of slippage when they get really wet with rainfall?

The Brew Cabin

Lots f beginner questions