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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:16 am
by stevenkelby
I have no paving experience yet but am pretty "handy", built the car port etc,
I'm soon going to pave up the driveway and across the (soon to be built) verandah, total of 230sqm, with 50mm concrete rectangles, either 110 x 220 or 150 x 300, can't decide which yet. Will be 45 degree herringbone.
My friend has a big, very heavy, iron and concrete roller he can lend me to compact my base with, will it do the job as good as wacker?
Also, can I pave on the existing 2 meters of concrete then dig up the grass, make a base and pave on that for another 2 meters?
The car will ocasionally drive over the egde of the paving onto the grass, I will either cement the soldiers in or use some nail in edging.
Will a good, new base, where the grass currently is, sink noticeabley in time, compared to the existing concrete?
I have white quartz on the first part of the drive, is it any good as a base? I assume no so it will need removing, right?
Thanks for the help,
Steve.
PS, I sent some pics to Tony to try and upload.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:14 pm
by russ the builder
STEVE.
just found this website. I think its brilliant.
As i see it the roller will offer some compaction (I'm assuming its a non mechanical pull roller) but but not enough for there to be minimul settlement after youve layed, also you will struggle in the corners of the excavation, assuming you are digging out the lawn and having the paving finished level at lawn level, (i suggest paving slightly raised 10-15 mm adjacent lawn).
The Quartz may not be suitable on its own as an hardcore material, especially if it is a single sized, as this is uncompactible, by that i mean you can put a wacker across it but you could run the heel of your boot straight through it causing the material to ruck and ridge. I would allow your quartz to be added to a good graded hardcore, dont know if your a urban city dweller or a rural dweller, i ask that because were i live in mid wales there is no problem with cheap naturally occuring quarried hardcore, however our cities are quite rightly offerin crushed material from demolition projects for hardcore, be careful that what you get is suitable, A good graded 25mm down to dust material would br the best.
Overlay the concrete by all means as long as you can achieve the levels you require, personally when I have overlayed concrete I make a 8:1 sand cement mix (Semi dry) and lay on this, as it gives a bit if bond to the existing concrete, carry this through the whole area and the fact youve got a bit of body to your laying material will help in stabilising the settlement difference.
Hope this may be of som help
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:12 pm
by stevenkelby
Thanks for the reply Russ,
The roller I have available is the old pull roller type, hard to move and if it won't do the job properly I won't bother with it.
The finished paving will probably be about 150mm above current lawn level, I haven't worked out the levels properly for that bit yet. I was planning to build up the level of the lawn to ramp up to the edge of the paving once the paving is completed, is that usual practice, so there is no step?
I see what you mean about the quartz, it won't compact. I may try and sell it as it's only a year old (bought the house 6 months ago) and would still have some value.
I can get good road base no problem locally. I live in a city but there are plenty of good "BM"'s
I should have mentioned I'm in Australia! The terminology is very different but I will learn! I did live in GB for a couple years so I understand the rest of the language!
Do you mean I should do a rigid type paving on the part that goes from cocrete to grass and set the whole thing in sandy cement? I should still do the driveway in flexible style, right?
Thanks for the advice,
Steve.
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:41 pm
by russ the builder
Steve hi again,
Apologies for not contemplating the fact you were in a different country from that of the U.K.
Right i'm getting the drift of what your after, heres how I see it (even though I cannot,)
The modular paving is to be 50mm thick, it wont matter to this guideline what area size you decide to go with as the spec remains the same.
1. preparation existing concrete.(assuming levels allow it to remain). Make sure swept clean, I would remove any surface growth, moss ect. use a decent weedkiller if you have and decent weeds growing through cracks (assuming there may be a crack or two hence the revamp project), Any gullies, manholecovers ect will have to be raised to your new level.
2. Grass area. work out your finished levels (Top of paviour) of the corners of the paving by putting pins or wooden pegs at these corners, use a string line to connect these corner levels, now this is a tricky bit, you have said above that your finished level of the paving is to be 150mm above the existing grass, nothing wrong with this as you have said that your making the lawn,grass level up when completed (Be certain that you have enough room to have a suitable gradient to tie back into the existing grass, this will be a topsoil and turf/seed operation i assume) the problem I see is that although theoretically ther should not need to be much earthworks because youre making up levels,However organic material (Grass topsoil) will need to be excavated to the subsoil as only then you can eliminate shrinkage and heave that would occur as the seasons played there role on this organic layer. so in this case excavate till youve removed topsoil and then import your hardcore and lay to make up the level so as to allow after thorough compaction 100mm from finished level, this will allow 50mm for paviour and 50mm for sand or sand/cement of screed/bed. remember that as youre making up thes levels above existing I reccomend that you allo at least a 250mm oversize of the substructure work, dont worry when youve finished the paving and topsoiling can commence you will bring it into its own and it will look as you would want it to.
3. Having done all preparation and ready to lay you paviours, as I have said whenever I have overlayed a rigid surface (Concrete) I have used a mixed sand cement screed at a ratio 8 parts sand 1 part cement, mixed to a semi dry consistency (This can be difficult in some mixers as the mix tends to just sit in there instead of moving like clothes in a tumble drier, this can be assisted by manually altering the drum as the mix is rotating (Turning towards empty position but holding onto handle so drum is at 90 degrees to ground and you will find the mix will in fact fold in the drum instead of just sitting there sticking to the sides), I wont go any further into the laying process other than say there is no need to change the spec of mix under the rigid (Concrete) area to any thing different for the lawn area. I may say that the edges that do not abut any structure will be best layed on a stronger 4:1 screed slightly moister to allow better adhesion, and haunched to within 20mm of top edge when finshed.
One point Would like to make out is that D.I.Yers when it c`omes to paving seem unaware of the mess they make in terms of cement staining to the top (Finished ) surface, I recommend that dont try and wipe of staines as they happen, but allow for an hour back at the job roughly 5or6 hours later EG if youve just spent your sunday grafting at the patio, make room for that hour in the evening and wash down gently but firmly and staining tha as occured. I usually find this is a good time for satisfaction of your efforts (fruitpicking) and good for making on going decisions with the project.
Hope some of this may help a bit. Russ
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:13 am
by stevenkelby
Wow Russ,
That helps a lot, thanks for all the advice and info!
The main part of the job (driveway/carport) is currently hard packed dirt, it's only around 20sqm on the patio that is currently poor concrete.
I'm considering ripping up all the concrete to make life easier with levels and to avoid the mess of laying on cement.
I will probably get a bobcat (small jcb?) in to rip up the concrete, move the quartz and level out all 230sqm reasonably well.
Levels only need adjusting on the driveway about 100mm but I think it will just be too much work by hand with a shovel and wheelbarrow!
It should be easier to do the whole job the same way.
Iv'e got loads of good ideas now, thanks for the help!
Will post more when I can figure out how to add pictures.
Steve.
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:05 pm
by Tony McC
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:27 pm
by stevenkelby
Thank you Tony,
OK Iv'e finished the site, sfter a few late nights, and feel like a pro now, only thing I lack is any experience or judgement! So I have heaps more questions to confirm a few things.
Pic 1: I assume you can buy extenders for these sewer access chambers, would it be normal practice just to raise that plate to the finished paving level? Correct me if not.
I will remove all the concrete in the pics and plan to pave level with the footings, which sticks out from the side of the house by 75mm. Unfortunately that level is 75mm - 90mm below the DPC... So, AS the entire pavement/house interface will be undercover via the carport and soon to be built verandah, Will it be possible to pace to that level, any tips like a steep fall for the first couple pavers or somekind of membrane?
I would like the paving that high to minimise the step out the back door, which is about 20mm above the footing, and so I don't have to excavate too much of the 230sqm area as I currently have average depth of 240mm between the footing level and ground level, just needs evening out before the base goes down. Which should be perfect for 150mm sub base, 50mm sand and 50mm pavers minus 10mm compression or so.
Pic 2: I will rip up the concrete and the grass to the width of the first pole in the pic.
Pic 3: These stones lead from the footpath to the front of the carport. A rollerdoor is going between the 2 steel posts. The stones I will remove and put elsewhere on the property.
Pic 4: Here is the concrete, it's breaking and has slate under it, can a bobcat (small jcb) break this up?
Pic 5: The verandah will be extending from the pictured carport right across the back of the house and I will pave beneath it. I want to do 45o herringbone up the drive in charcoal with almond soldier course, 3 almond diamonds spaced out evenly up the driveway like Tony drew here:
http://www.pavingexpert.com/images/blocks/block051.gif
When I get to the patio/verandah part I won't to reverse the colours, charcoal soldiers and diamonds and almond body. Will it look stupid to change the paver format too, from a 150x300 rectangle to a 300x300 square say, and do a diagonal stack bond?
Finally, Tony, what can we do for you? Is there a charity or something?! Surely you must want something for all youv'e done for all these people?
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:53 am
by stevenkelby
One more question, whats the best, most accurate way of keeping a 3mm gap between blocks? I'm using concrete and they are very accurate sizes but don't have those little bumps on the sides that some blocks do. Can I use those little plastic X and T pieces that are meant for tiling? They are available in 3mm, has anyone tried this?
I will use string to make sure the lines are straight of course.
Thanks,
Steve.
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:15 pm
by Tony McC
1 - use a "recess tray cover" and to cope with the projecting footing, have a look at Dealing with DPCs
4 - possibly - especially if aided and abetted by a sledgehammer.
5 - create a break abnd between "drive" and patio and there'll be no problem changing the block format or layout...
...except I forgot to reverse the colours.
What can you do for me? Buy me a pint when you're next in Europe or buy a copy of my book when/if it ever gets published (note to self - must kick publisher's arse this week)
How to maintain 3mm gap on non-spacer blocks: get hold of some 3mm board (hardboard will be fine), and cut hundreds of spacers 10-15mm wide and 50mm longer than the depth of the blocks. Place these upright between blocks as you're laying and then, when you've checked the alignment and scattered some jointing sand over the surface, enough to 'lock' the blocks into place, the hardboard spacers can be pulled out and re-used. If you leave them, in place, they'll rot away and cause the jointing sand to drop, so it's best to remove as many as poss, but if some break off and are irretrievable, it's not a major worry on this type of project.
Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:13 pm
by stevenkelby
Tony your'e a legend, thats exactly what I needed.
Got myself some web hosting for pics now. More questions and pics to follow as the project progresses I'm sure.
Could be a few weeks before I start though, building verandah now.
Put me down for a copy of the book, can paypal, visa or send money, let me know when!
Thanks,
Steve.
