The Brew Cabin

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:05 pm**

Tony,

Just had 19 metres of Marshalls 56x56x60 in, supposedly, colour Ashbourne Red Multi delivered. I've removed a couple of clusters from each pallet (3 pallets in total) to compare the colour differences between the clusters. There is a difference in the tone of red between each cluster I pulled but overall the colour looks more like Marshall's Sherbourne Red rather than ARM. All three pallets are labeled ARM but when I check the colour of ARM in the Marshall's catalogue to the ARM I have received there is a large difference. How much does the colour change (darken?) over time? Is the ARM represented in the Marshall's catalogue intended to be the cobbles appearance over time not when freshly delivered/laid?

I thought I'd check with you first before making myself look like a complete twat when I complain to TP!

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:13 pm**

Are the batch numbers different on the packs this would explain the difference between the pack colours as it is advised to open all the packs ordered and evenly mix them to avoid colour differences but in answer to your main q. the block should look pretty similar to the pics in the catalogue, however it is unlikely marshalls have labelled several pack of block incorectley. Regards Alan D.

Posted: **Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:57 am**

Alan,

Thanks for your reply...

The 3 pallets comprise of one complete pallet with a Marshalls label and batch number, one incomplete pallet with the label batch number conveniently missing (almost looks like it was torn off on purpose but I may be getting paranoid!) and an order select pallet to make up the total batch with no label or batch number at all. The blocks do not look at all similar in colour/ multi shaded when compared to ARM in the Marshalls catalogue (or their Web site) - in fact I would say they are a bland Sherbourne Red Multi if anything! The main pallet contains clusters that have some slight variation in shading but the overall colour bears no resemblance to the catalogue -the two other pallets contain clusters that look all the same shade.

I spoke to Marshall's Tech Dept and they gave me the 'variation in fired clay' speil and asked me to contact the BM. Anyway, I contacted TP and gave them the batch no and they are talking to Marshalls. TP say that Marshalls may send out one of their people to have a look. I'll have to wait until Monday to see what develops.

Keep you posted,

Thanks

Posted: **Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:56 am**

I have the ARM cobbles in my garden - the form the main paths leading to the Pond of Certain Death and the High-Tech Research Lab/Lawnmower Storage Facility. The colour in ARM is more variable than in the Sherbourne, or it is to my eyes, at least.

The ARM is a more orangey-red, and the cobbles (or full pavers) tend to veer off into the browny-tan part of the spectrum as a result of kilning variations. The SR is a strong "Accrington" red with very little colour variation.

Here's a couple of pictures. The first one is a driveway I built some years ago using the ARM pavers, with ARM cobbles interspersed with a sprinkling of Rushmere Brown cobbles for effect....

....while the second one is a path formed using the Sherbourne Red - it's the very same path as featured in the Marshalls 2004 driveway catalogue, but this is my own photo, not a scan of their photo.

Note in particular the colour variation of the pavers in the first picture. This is absolutely typical of the ARM - note the tans and brown shades, which you just don't get in SR.

Have you got a copy of the Marshalls Clay Products catalogue (2002 edition)? There's a pair of contrasting photos in there (p87) which really do emphasise the diff between the two blends. If you don't have a copy, I'll scan it in and upload it for you.

Posted: **Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:50 pm**

Tony,

Thanks for your reply...

Looking at your photo on the left I would agree that the main pallet of cobbles I have look pretty much as in that photo with a variation of shades of orangy-red. But wouldn't you agree that the ARM depicted in the Marshalls 2003 & 2004 catalogues (and their Web site) looks like a richer, darker red?
Would you also agree that the part pallets I have should also have a variation of shades? - they seem to contain the same shade?

I appreciate that these cobbles will weather/darken over time (how much?) but I was just very surprised at how 'terracottary' these cobbles look when compared to those in the catalogue. I was looking for pretty much the same colour as depicted in the catalogue to blend/contrast with the surroundings and the Rushmere Brown kerbline edgings.

As I haven't got a copy of Marshalls Clay Products catalogue (2002 edition) the scans would be very useful.

Thanks for your help!

Posted: **Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:58 am**

...spent Saturday afternoon barrowing the contents of the main pallet (11m2) and the order select pallet (3m2) of cobbles from the front of the house into the back garden. On splitting the contents the main pallet has many different shades from the orangy-red to the browny-tan colour as you describe. The order select pallet doesn't seem to have the same wide variation in shades as the main pallet but when mixed with the contents of the main pallet should be ok.

The third pallet (5m2) (with no batch number, and on closer inspection a broken pallet and some broken clusters - looks like it may have been dropped on it's corner or whacked with something) has no real variation in shade - all cobbles seem to be the same orangy-red. Is this normal? or should each pallet contain a variation of shades?

Thanks again...

Posted: **Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:29 pm**

Interesting coincidence - I have just returned empty handed from Wickes having tried to purchase 'Brindle' pavers. They were quite clearly charcoal blocks with a red 'wash' on the top.

The manager broke a block open and revealed the mix as primarily charcoal with a few seperate layers of red.

He advised they are supplied by Marshalls. So quality control at Marshalls is presently up the creek!

I feel sorry for anyone who has bought and laid these blocks, as it seems likely after a few rain showers they will have a charcoal drive, with a hint of pink.

Thanks Marshalls - I hope readers vote with their wallets, there is no excuse for this cock-up.

Ian Oldfield
Epsom Downs.

Posted: **Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:25 am**

OK, here's the image from the Marshalls Clay products catalogue...

The cobbles at the top are the ARM (allegedly) whhile those below are the Sherbourne.

It's never a good idea to base your assessment of a paver from photos in a catalogue. The big companies spend gazillions of quids to get arty-farty togfers in to photo the paving in artificial light, with staged settings, and then they photo-shop the images to present them in the best light. Combine this with the inherent limitations of colour reproduction in print or web media, and what you see may not be what you get. You should always judge the colour of a paving product from a real example and not from a picture.

I think all you can do, if you've not already done it while I've been busy elsewhere, is to thoroughly mix all the cobbles you have and so get a random distribution of the various shades. This should give a fairly acceptable result.

These cobbles, being clay, don't fade or bleach over time, as would most concrete pavers, but they do tend to get a bit darker as a result of dirt being trapped on the surface. The overall colouring remains constant, just a shade or two darker, that's all. You can counter this by regular cleaning and/or sealing, but for garden paths, I quite like the semi-neglected look - it works well with my attempt at a cottage garden.

Moving on to Ian's fun'n'games with the Wickes-Marshalls blocks, I know that Marshallettes do read the Brew Cabin, but none of them ever want to put their name down and post a reply or refutation, unlike, say, Simeon from Ronacrete and John Clifford from Westminster Stone who are perfectly willing to defend their products in public.

I can guess what the answer would be, though - the blocks produced for Wickes are a budget product developed to meet the needs of the cost-conscious DIYer and the quality of these blocks should not be taken as an indicator of the quality found in Marshalls' premium products which are sold under their own name.

Posted: **Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:20 pm**

Tony,

I hope the 'busy elsewhere' was pleasurable!

Thanks for your reply and the scans. The ARM scan from the Marshall's '02 catalogue is a lot closer to the truth when compared to the image used in their later catalogues.

I've spoken to TP about this colour difference problem and they are certainly willing to return the cobbles to Marshalls at a (Marshall's) re-stocking charge of 75 quid!

.

I was speaking to Marshall's Tech Dept last week and they offered to send some samples of ARM. If one or more of the samples is nearer the overall colour I am looking for then they will match the batch number(s) of the samples and send the appropriate quantity.

I'll take up Marshalls on their sample offer before I decide what to do.

Keep you posted,

ps: I have a further question re the design of my patios. To help explain the problem I would like to upload some digi photos - do I still send these to you as email attachments to your email address?

Posted: **Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:29 pm**

Yep send me photos and I'll upload them....eventually!

Posted: **Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:52 pm**

Tony,

No probs - this site must be a full-time job these days!

Looks like this project will be going into the winter anyway - not only have I got the cobbles problem I'm also waiting on Blockleys (4 - 6 weeks) for some radial kerb bricks for the patio steps I want to build.

Just gotta hope the weather will be kind to me!

Posted: **Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:53 pm**

Tony

Not sure this is for here, or whether it should be a new thread .... you stated you thought Marshalls would suggest the Wickes blocks were not the same as their 'badged' product.

I got some brindles from B&Q this evening - the wrapper shows they came from Charcon - presumably another reputable firm? They were all much more consistent in colour than Wickes - also, the same price at 21p each.

Do you have a view on the DIY products - are we getting the rubbish? Have you compared brands? What makes a good block better than another?

Thank you...again, for all your help.

Ian O
Epsom Downs

Posted: **Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:10 am**

The blocks at B&Q are Charcon, and are sold as such - unlike the Wickes stuff, these Charcon blocks are not sold under the retailer's brand, and they are not a 'special production run' using lower quality aggregates, less dye and a lower cement content: they are exactly the same as the Charcon blocks you can buy from a BM.

As to whether Charcon blocks are as good as, say Marshalls or Formpave or Brett, is a subjective question for many of us. A couple of weeks back I was having a liquid lunch with an ex-Marshallette and we got on to the subject of what we considered to be the best CBP in Britain. For me, I belive it is the 200x100x60mm Ramsbottom Brindle from Marshalls - I like it so much, I have it laid to my driveway. What I like about it is that it's a close-textured finish, none of the rice-krispie-cake look, and the blend of red, charcoal and buff seems to be exactly in balance to produce a wonderfully dappled effect when laid. The Marshalls Brindles from other plants, especially those from the Sandy works in Bedfordshire, are not in the same league, nor are the 50mm Driveline stuff. It's the 60mm BS blocks that win my vote.

However, my companion shocked me by claiming that he thought the Eaton Brindle was a better product! I freely admit that I never liked the colours of the Eaton Brindle - too much charcoal, too flat a red, and overall, I found them to be a bit on the dismal side, but he argues that for dimensional accuracy, consistency of product, quality of aggregate and cuttability in a splitter, the Eaton blocks have no equal.

So: for me, an ex-contractor, I chose a block on its appearance, while an ex-sales bod choose technical merit. Which would you choose?

In fact, when I get back from Glee, I'm going to upload the poll that's been sat on my hard drive for the last 4 months - what is your favourite CBP? But for now, I'll start a separate thread where the merits or shortcomings of various products can be discussed.

The Brew Cabin

Have i been supplied with the wrong colour cobbles