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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:38 pm
by mickavalon
I currently use a regular crew of 6 guys, all officially classed as Self employed, and they give me invoices for work and I pay them. 3 are full self employed and provide all their own gear, 3 are labour only(labourers). Now I'm well aware of the current attitude from the Government about self employment/zero hours contracts etc, however, with the current economic uncertainty, sporadic work, employees rights and occasional weather delays(Winters on her way), I've always shied away from full employment due to the sheer cost and hassle.
I have employed lads in the past, and each time I've found the guys attitudes changed, slight bit of rain or bit of a headache and whereas they used to just crack on, all of a sudden they're phoning in sick or claiming a weather day!
I don't wish to break laws(regardless of whether there right or not, but I really don't think that my company could afford the added costs, and specifically, if my potential clients would like the cost rise, I think we'd rapidly be too expensive.
How does everyone else handle it?
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:39 pm
by rxbren
Its a bit shit If they work regular for you then technically they're employed by you whether they use their own kit or not
Lots of people do it and its a bit of a crap situation if they work for a domestic customer direct and invoice them its fine for full payment but with them working through you, you should deduct and pay 20% tax on their behalf
The grey area is number of hours worked, wether they sort their own work out, if they are responsible cost wise for any mistakes and a few other bits but generally when you look through the list it makes self employed technically employed so you would have to pay their tax,ni, employers tax and Ni, pension contribution theirs plus your contribution om top, holiday pay which you cant include/deduct in their hourly wage. So it basically gets expensive quick and means you have to pay a lower wage on the cards to keep your costs the same
Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:47 pm
by lutonlagerlout
^^ exactly
if you have someone on the cards there is a mountain of paperwork,pensions have to be offered,sick pay, holiday pay, was talking about this today ,In 1989 I was on the cards laying bricks getting £175 a week topline from Sid farrow, I went to a subbie site down the road and got £70 a shift +£ 25 a week attendance bonus I.E. do 5 days and you got it
ok so i lost holiday pay etc. but the reality is that my money nearly doubled overnight for doing the same job
cheers LLL 
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:20 am
by Forestboy1978
I'm facing this right now. Have a labourer on the cards but it's damn annoying cos I have to make sure there is constant work which means I have to work constantly or take my holiday when he takes his holiday.
I'm finding myself this weekend doing 5 quotes yesterday and right now working them all out and sorting material drops for next week so whole weekend gone and I'm sick of it.
Toying with the idea of taking on someone really experienced but I'm thinking about how much I'd have to pay them and I'd literally possibly make a loss on their wages after all costs. All it "might" do is free me up to do admin during the week rather than labour myself all week and then do admin all weekend and most evening during the week.
Can't figure a way around it... other than charge more but I'd never win any quotes.
The other option I'm considering is dropping the labourer, cutting biz costs, de registering for VAT and just doing 2 or 3 fence jobs a month on my own.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:57 am
by digerjones
I'm not really that experienced with labour, I've a few over the years but nothing permanent or employed anyone cards in. I do mainly building /groundwork, I've got plenty of kit so rarely need labourers. I rarely leave my village for work, I'm lucky.
I think your right, do less earn more. Are you any better off being vat registered?
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:08 pm
by Forestboy1978
digerjones wrote:I'm not really that experienced with labour, I've a few over the years but nothing permanent or employed anyone cards in. I do mainly building /groundwork, I've got plenty of kit so rarely need labourers. I rarely leave my village for work, I'm lucky.
I think your right, do less earn more. Are you any better off being vat registered?
Dunno yet.
It's better for commercial work cos commercial clients get the VAT back. I can buy more equipment for less of course cos I get the VAT back.
It's hit my pure labour work cos of course I get no VAT back but I have upped my prices and lost some of it which isn't a bother cos I hate hedge work for example and blame the monotony of up and down with the trimmers for causing my osteoarthritis in my left shoulder.
Jury is out. I think you can get by on your own nicely being non VAT registered but if you want to grow a business and do less labour yourself it's a must and for me now I have to be thinking of the future. Fencing is brutal on the body, as are many landscaping activities.. Really I dunno mate.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:38 pm
by digerjones
If you want to grow, then yes you need to be vat registered more staff etc. Me personally, I couldn't cope with the stress.I can do what I want when I want with in reason.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:28 pm
by dig dug dan
digerjones wrote:If you want to grow, then yes you need to be vat registered more staff etc. Me personally, I couldn't cope with the stress.I can do what I want when I want with in reason.
Totally agree. Once you emply someone, you then need risk assessments, method statements, pay them a pension by law now, if they have an accident, they can sue you even if you have trained them properly.
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:32 pm
by lutonlagerlout
its tough when you are on the cusp of being small and being medium,but you need to have an employee whos is capable of being left alone while you do your paperwork on say a monday afternoon
we all do some office stuff in free time but it can burn you out
need to have at least a day a week *me* time Andres
LLL
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:12 pm
by Forestboy1978
lutonlagerlout wrote:its tough when you are on the cusp of being small and being medium,but you need to have an employee whos is capable of being left alone while you do your paperwork on say a monday afternoon
we all do some office stuff in free time but it can burn you out
need to have at least a day a week *me* time Andres
LLL
2 days Tony 
Screw it I'm putting an ad out for a fully experienced landscaper. I was worried about work this next month but I sent an email out to all previous customers doing a "check up" on guaranteed work and held my breath lol.
Got a lot of work out of it. If I had more admin time I could guarantee solid work for peeps and also crunch the numbers better while I'm at it.
I'm at shit or bust stage really. Call it a day and do the minimum or go balls out. I've always been all or nothing so I guess it'll have to be all..
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:15 pm
by rxbren
Regardless if you employ someone or not by law your meant to have risk assessments method statements does not matter if domestic either its all treated the same now
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:16 pm
by rxbren
Also have you gone full vat or flat rate
Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:42 pm
by Forestboy1978
No idea RXbren. Whatever the accountant decided lol. If I had more free time this is the exact thing I would know more about....