The Brew Cabin

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:50 pm**

I see lot's of concrete surfaces in England with bad scaling.

IMO one of the main culprits of the problem, is with the concrete industry's tool supplier's misinforming under educated contractors.

Anyone undertaking concrete work worth there money should know not to use steel on freshly poured concrete because it seals the surface trapping the excess water, bleed water will still show up on the surface but some will remain trapped.

The float that's at the heart of this problem is the Big Blue, i see everyone that has this trowel using it as a bull float. There are two main types of bull float, wood or magnesium not steel.

There are many other factors in concrete scaling, to much water in the mix, spraying water on the surface to make it easier to finish, but using this Big Blue steel float is just poor.

Any thoughts on this, do you see contractors using this trowel, do you use it yourself? I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:11 pm**

If that was the case ,no concrete man would use one,I have used one for years to finish concrete from shed base's to yards to finished floor,no problems with scaling as long as the concrete is no to wet and vibrated corectly what is the problem,shutters or road form- then roller striker or vibrostrike every time,in this day and age tools are to make work easier, bluetrowel on 6 or 7 poles is common place,after roller or vibro what is the need to mag float it as its smooth and aggregates are down,ready to finish when it allows MSH

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:42 pm**

Im always willing to learn, give me a run down on your procedure mr rock

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:49 pm**

msh paving wrote:what is the need to mag float it as its smooth

I don't mean to disrespect you, but you have got it wrong and this is why there is so much bad concrete work happening in England. There seems to be a complete breakdown in the understanding of concrete know how in England and it is letting the trade down badly.

With concrete laying in-situ you are not only the placer but also the manufacturer, unlike laying blocks where the manufacturing has been done for you.

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:54 pm**

Ok, found this, backs up what i'm saying a little.

Bull Floating

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:00 pm**

local patios and driveways wrote:Im always willing to learn, give me a run down on your procedure mr rock

Screed
Bull Float
Edges (with mag float)
Lunch/Beer (waiting for bleed to go)
Power Trowel / Stick Trowel (depending on size)
Edges (with steel trowel)
Power Trowel / Stick Trowel
More Lunch/Beer
Cure

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:10 pm**

TheRockConcreting wrote:
local patios and driveways wrote:Im always willing to learn, give me a run down on your procedure mr rock

Screed
Bull Float
Edges (with mag float)
Lunch/Beer (waiting for bleed to go)
Power Trowel / Stick Trowel (depending on size)
Edges (with steel trowel)
Power Trowel / Stick Trowel
More Lunch/Beer
Cure

At what point do you put your hand prints in it?

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:12 pm**

2 beers there jay
thats a red card I'm afraid :;):

I have fecked up concrete and I have done some fair to good concrete work

things that can and do make it go wrong
too much water
rain
wrong mix
not enough finishing time

there may be qualifications in OZ jay but most blokes here learn on the job
I imagine Oz like the states has a lot of big concrete works going on as there is a lot of spare land and the weather is much better than here

concrete here is normally the last port of call for surfacing drives etc
this is due to years of cowboys doing a 2 day PIC course then ballsing it up
I have a magnesium hand float, i bought it in america years ago and couldnt work out what it was for :laugh:
interesting topic anyways
LLL

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:17 pm**

lutonlagerlout wrote:this is due to years of cowboys

This is why i was trying to educate the forum readers and make a small difference!
The post could also help people getting concrete done spot the cowboys

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:36 pm**

I've got a wooden bull float its a piece of about same size as a big blue but its inch thick hardwood, we go over with that first before anything else.

Got our 540m2 pour on sat, they'll cure as they power float with the big ride on floats, they aren't bring the big solero now two smaller units, and he's he me cancel the pump want us to run it in with the 6 ton dumper, he knows his stuff though so hopefully it ll goes to plan. They did 9000m2 last week, Â£140k in concrete! .

I used to do it wrong like tony said you learn by others and that why so many bad things get passed down the line, the famous I've been doing it this way for 40 years routine yeah but you are wrong...

I read up n this site then bought a few books from the states on concreting then just watching videos on YouTube etc trying it with each pour and learning. Bit each time.

A lot of ppl do think a big blue is a bull flat though.

I've never seen a builder use a curing agent on concrete, I've got 220 litres of it now to go on,

Speedcreate catalogue is a dangerous place for me hehe

Edited By GB_Groundworks on 1362685346

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:56 pm**

Thats good to hear someone like yourself that is primarily a ground worker taking concrete seriously and treating it with respect.

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:21 pm**

most of the men that i learned from were old school irish
concrete was treated with disdain
"piss it up and it will find its own level" was a common one
"alright for a country job" another favourite
pouring concrete in to trenches with 400mm of water in, throwing "plums" in to make up volume
plums=== hardcore,scaffold boards ,and i kid you not "mud"
I believe concrete is taken far more seriously in the USA and Oz and concrete finishing is a bona fide trade
here it just seems to be something that shutterers and labourers fall into

after recent comments about CEM1 and CEM2 i noticed that the cement we use for brickwork and general building work is nearly all CEM2
to get CEM1 you have to buy "high strength " cement
LLL

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:42 pm**

lutonlagerlout wrote:to get CEM1 you have to buy "high strength " cement
LLL

Yes this is true it is hard to get unless you are buying loose bulk. There is a company called Dragon Alfa that supply 42.5R (normal strength) CEM I

There is a healthy concrete industry here in England all be it alot smaller than Oz, but things are changing here as more people look to see what the rest of the world is doing.

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:18 pm**

Proper concrete is on the same level large civil engineering pours etc

See Tarmac now doing self consolidating concrete doesn't have to be vibrated etc

Too many guys on site and I've done it and I plead ignorance because the older guys told me wet it up to make it more useable, this just equals weaker concrete that's harder to do anything with.

And trying to force ppl to change is hard work, even simple things like dpm under Crete or pouring large slabs and spending the time to finish vs leaving them as they'll get a screed later

I think young lads like me are pushing things forward in our game we read up on stuff and try new things where as older generation stick to what they know, my dad always has a go at me for trying to find a machine for everything. I have no problem with mechanising everything and that old boy thing a hard days work never killed anyone.

Erm yes it did, and it crippled men's bodies

Small dumper instead of barrows, block grabs, magic screeds mini diggers etc kerb grabs, when I started helping out on site cement and everything was in 50kg back breakers.

Edited By GB_Groundworks on 1362691173

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:29 pm**

you must of been young then giles,the 50kg bags were phased out in about 1992
I remember the cement lorry and the brick lorry turning up on site till i was about 21 and then they started using fork trucks
previously we had to hand ball the lot off
cheers LLL

The Brew Cabin

Concrete scaling