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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:37 pm
by Ludovik
Hi. I'm wondering if anyone can give me any advice. I am in my late 40's, pondering a change in career and retraining in the hard landscaping area. I'm thinking smallish garden/domestic project areas rather then the big building sites or construction industry and I am looking for courses/training/some way to gain experience in hard landscaping in the barbarian wastelands of the South East close to East London.
I realise that the normal way of things is to get into this line of work as a youngster and work your way up as an apprentice in an established firm, and that because of my age, you may tell me I have little chance of being taken on by most companies. I'm an artist (sculptor) by training and have a love of practical work with a range of materials, a pride for a quality finished surface, an eye for detailing and good craftsmanship, and am not afraid of hard physical work, low pay and cold and dirty working conditions.
I've searched this site for training recommendation/contacts, but only come up with the Hard Landscape Training Group pages that seem to fizzle out sometime in 2007...their website consists of a page suggesting I "learn English in Belfast while it is cheap" (WTF?). Lantra website is also no help. From lots of poring through training centre promotional fluff, it seems to me that doing an NVQ level 2 course could be a way to go, but there seems nothing aimed at paving/landscaping specifically. There are some hard landscaping courses at horticultural colleges, but these usually seem to be for training garden designers, not contractors/craftsmen.
At present, I'm thinking of going through a bricklaying NVQ, and doing as many shorter paving/patio courses as I can find. But I am worried about that leap from training to convincing companies to take me on to finish NVQ components and gain essential experience. Am I just crazy?
Any advice/suggestions/strategies/piss-taking from you experienced wise-beards would be gratefully received.
By the way...truly a great website, Tony: you can spend months on here reading everything....karma owes you big-time!
Thanks for your time,
Ludovik
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:04 pm
by lutonlagerlout
ludovik,
love your enthusiasm but the building game (that includes hardscaping)
is on its knees right now
massive downward pressure on prices which in turn means people invest less in training.
me and my crew are all in our 40's early 50's and it definitely doesn't get any easier after 35
to my mind you will have to get work with a local hardscaper,probably on a low wage if you want to learn stuff
I picked a lot up watching older blokes doing it
I would say you would be looking at 18 months - 3 years to get competent enough to go alone
good luck
LLL 
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:34 am
by Carberry
You seem intelligent enough to learn on your own based on what you have written here, and the fact that you have come here shows you have some initiative and drive.
If, after what LLL has said, you still want to go through with it I suggest reading everything on this site multiple times, every article, going through old forum posts etc.
Buy the gaffer's book, buy it direct from him rather than through a retailer so he gets most of the profit.
See if you can do some labouring for a landscaper, ideally you want a quality landscaper but failing that you can still learn and get used to using the materials. I think at one point or another most of the guys here were working for guys doing the 5 dot method.
If you have a front or back garden then get some materials delivered there and build, rip up, rebuilt. You can find quite a lot of stuff on gumtree. Lay a section of monoblocking, lay a section of slabs, build a small wall.
Have a look at local colleges doing part time courses. At the very least they will have a brick laying course which will help
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:51 am
by local patios and driveway
Dont forget if you are going to practice in your own area only mix 20 sand to 1 cement so you can take it apart again afterwards.
I think the above is good advice, i worked for a posh landscaper in london last year who openly admitted to having done two years amd now working for himself. He had gone to a reputable firm told the owner he wanted to learn so he could set himself up after a few years and was willing to graft hard for peanuts if they took the time to show him how to do the work right. The owner was happy to take him on and kept to his word.
The guys work was "ok" but he was well spoken and rather posh. He made a good impression
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:54 am
by Tony McC
I wish karma would show its appreciation on a 50 quid note!
I am *so* frigging angry about the totally pathetic and completely shambolic provision of training for the paving trrade in this country. It really does make my blood boil.
The Hard Landscape Training Group was supposed to organise everything, but it became a self-serving bureaucracy, whose only reason for existence was to pay a petty-minded administrator a very comfortable salary and so give weight to the pretence that "something was being done". To qualify for the generous CITB grant, the adminsitrator was recording persons sent on weedkiller application courses and chainsaw maintenance days as having recieved training in hard landscaping. FFS!
I wrote the NVQ2 for paving, funded by BALI and so it was aimed towards what is termed "Amenity Horticulture". It is still available, but it forms just a small component of a training plan aimed more at gardeners and landscapers rather than paving contractors.
I also wrote the Modern Apprenticeship Programme, funded by CITB and intended for the building and civils trade, which the then administrator of HLTG went to extraordinary lengths to scupper. I even provided trainees for the pilot course, but the kibosh was well and truly put in for petty, personal reasons.
We had active support and participation from almost every major paving manufacturer in the country. Marshalls, Brett, Cemex, Formpave, Charcon/Bradstone, Tobermore ... all of these generous companies subsidised and provided facilities to run training courses, but the HLTG phased them out because it was more expedient to keep sending people on weedkiller and chainsaw courses run by third parties. That got all the necessary boxes ticked, and the salary paid, without the inconvenience of actually doing very much.
The final communication from the admin and chairman to those of us on the HLTG committee came around three years ago. To paraphrase, it was felt that, as the building trade was having a tough time, many firms were cutting back on training and so there was no point in us meeting any longer. I couldn't believe it! Surely, if firms aren't providing training, it's even more important that we meet to discuss how we can persuade/cajole/bully companies into investing in training for when trade picks up.
The HLTG, as you say, fizzled out and those of us on the committee who had poured our time and effort into creating the programmes and promoting the ideals of the group were not even afforded the courtesy of an email to tell us we were no longer needed.
And so we have an industry with no effective training regime, and a wider construction industry that continues to undervalue the genuine skills that paving requires. Tradesmen with many years or decades of experience cannot get a 'skilled worker' CSCS card, but have to settle for a green General Construction Operative (labourer, in other words!) card. That is an insult. I served my time to become a skilled and accredited tradesman but those skills are now regarded as worthless, and will continue to be so until such time as we have an effective and properly administered training scheme.
As it stands, the best anyone with a wish to work in this trade can hope for is to get in with a firm that will fund their participation in an NVQ2 course, either the amenity horticulture or the civil engineering flavour. These opportunities are few and far between and when they are available, the firms involved usually want to offer them to teenagers who will work for less money than a 40 year old.
Other than that, as I say to dozens of similar enquirers each year, find a position as a labourer with an established paving company and learn skills on the job. At least you'll be earning while you're learning and in a few years time, you may have the skills and the confidence to set up on your own.
Sadly, the paving industry as it exists just now in Britain, can do bugger all to help you in your chosen career. That is a shameful state of affairs. 
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:35 pm
by local patios and driveway
Tony, i was saddened when i read that the whole training scheme had gone up the pan, i wanted to move to australia but had no way to proove my skills in the trade as there wasnt a course or body i could turn to. I have a red cscs skilled worker card (temp) that i cant forfill as no one does a suitable hard landscape/paving course. So i cant get proof of any skills or qualifications to back up my skill set. Its bloody frustrating and a recognised scheme would go a long way to weeding out the 'have a go pro' from our industry and give clients a certain peace of mind when choosing suitable contractors
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:57 pm
by ilovesettsonmondays
years ago whilst an apprentice mason with the local authority i took my city and guilds roadwork craft years 1 and 2 on day release every friday . practical in the morning including such things taking up the college pavements and relaying them . building vehicular crossings and even one day twenty lads cutting a square out of a piece of yorkstone with a punch...(would of been better saying we done it and just sell the york).over two years i learnt alot at college and with onsite work as well.i could and should have carried on with studying ,could have done another four years and would have been qualified as highways engineer after a couple upto highways superintendant after the four .the nvq level 2 in modular paving is a waste of time imho ,i got that back in 2005 , 2 hours in a classroom , put some barriers round a pack a slabs and lay two slabs . bingo im a paver . how does that make anyone be a paver .what the industry needs is something like the day release back.to the poster if i had to learn something again i would probably try an become a setting out engineer ,15 to 20 quid an hour uk wide .lots of engineers i have met ,some good ,some bad have started out as chain lads and just learnt off the engineer .maybe another road to look at
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:21 pm
by Ludovik
All of that makes sense. Thanks to everyone for your time and comments. I'll have to digest all this and consider my next move...You're a very generous and reasonable bunch, though, so thanks again.
(It does strike me that if we lived in a just universe, Tony would be a natural fit to be the (paid) administrator of a real training organisation that should get government money, but I guess that money hose is well and truly knotted now and that anyways, dealing with the beaurocrats and funding agencies wonks would drive any honest and properly capable person mad in weeks, if not days...)
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:07 pm
by Carberry
local patios and driveways wrote:i wanted to move to australia but had no way to proove my skills in the trade as there wasnt a course or body i could turn to. I
I should auction my hand in marriage off to the highest bidder so you can get entry in to Australia :laugh:
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:18 pm
by local patios and driveway
Carberry im sure you would be
a) far too pretty for me
And b) i want more kids...
Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:03 pm
by lutonlagerlout
any port in a storm dan :;):
LLL
Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:25 am
by Tony McC
A very good friend of mine followed exactly that career path, ILSOM, starting with Roadcraft, on to Highways Eng and is now the contracts manager of a very large operation. The two of us are convinced that apprenticeships are the only way to preserve genuine skills, to re-establish pride in the profession, and to give lads and lasses who are better with a maul than a mouse a chance of making a decent living.
The MAP I wrote for CITB lasted all of 18 months (Govt policy, apparently) with a minimum starting age of 17. In effect, we could churn out "kids" at 18½ and tell them they were tradesmen. Complete bollocks!
Firstly, you cannot possibly learn a trade in 18 months, and definitely not one as complex and varied as paving. And then secondly, apprenticeships were not just about learning skills by rote and repetition, they were about growing-up, maturing, and learning to think for yourself. This cannot be taught: it can *only* come with time, and that time is a damn sight longer than 18 months!
Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:12 pm
by gonchy
Tony McC wrote:The MAP I wrote for CITB lasted all of 18 months (Govt policy, apparently) with a minimum starting age of 17. In effect, we could churn out "kids" at 18½ and tell them they were tradesmen. Complete bollocks!
Firstly, you cannot possibly learn a trade in 18 months, and definitely not one as complex and varied as paving. And then secondly, apprenticeships were not just about learning skills by rote and repetition, they were about growing-up, maturing, and learning to think for yourself. This cannot be taught: it can *only* come with time, and that time is a damn sight longer than 18 months!
so true
when i done my carpentry an joinery appren it lasted 3 years and then 1 year extra for advance craft but what i learnt at college i have never used as all we done was make stairs ,doors etc all joinery(side)
all my knowledge and eperiance is from site and im still learning to this day 20 years later
but whats wrong is the cscs card alot of the older people i work with never trained so when cscs came out must be 10+ years now(and it was free then goverment grant i think) they got given grandfathers rights as they couldnt show any c&g so too me there should be some kind of reconised skill ,trade for hardlanscaping as there is a big shortage of trades all over as to me apprentiships have died . i work for a big irish carpentry subby with about 200 plus carpenters and we struggle becouse no one is coming into the trade anymore
so in my eyes cscs is nothing but a money spinner now
also since c&g went to nvq things went down hill with cscs c&g is no longer reconised so i have had my c&g changed to a nvq level 3 when newly trained only get level 2 so there shows the training now is not as good
sorry if ive gone on and of topic but i think the training body needs changing becouse before long the consruction ind will stall not from lack of funds but labour
Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:15 pm
by lutonlagerlout
i agree wholeheartedly
when i left in 84 apprenticeships in the building trades were seen as good career choices
now its the flotsam that cant get to college that drift in to our reach
(on the whole ,some good ones)
then they go to college for 2 years and 70 % of it is health and safety
until they change it i wont get any more apprentices,I have taught 3 blokes bricklaying from scratch and 2 run their own companies now,but its hard work teaching and realistically the first 6 months they are more of a pain than a gain
LLL
Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:28 pm
by ilovesettsonmondays
thats all tickets are money spinners. take the streetworks ticket for example if you have an nvq in paving , you have already learnt how to pave (apparently).youve learnt about barriers .how can they charge you 750 quid to teach you to put a men at work sign out , followed by a road narrows and an arrow board next to your barriers . and then charge you another 280 five years later as a refresher
