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Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm
by Tony McC
For over a decade, I've thought that the page listing the relevant British Standards was incredibly boring. Boring but necessary. If only there was some way to doll it up a little.
So I looked into providing links so that users could peruse further detail on each standard and/or buy them from BSI. That can't be difficult, can it?
What a frigging rigmarole! It took a couple of days for me to be "vetted" and then it turns out that I've actually corrupted or hacked the system by getting an automatic approval before I'd been interviewed on the 'phone. These are British Standards, probably the greatest non-chemical cure for insomnia known to man, and I have to be interrogated on the 'phone about my "offhand comments"!
Then it took a full day and a half to generate the links, painstakingly entering the url for the page on the BSI site into a third party site which would then dream up an overly-complicated 'deep-link' url and reference, which could then be coded into the site.
So: if any of you need to purchase any Standards for your job, yor just because you've not been sleeping well for a few nights, please do it through the new page as I need the comission to pay for a large bottle of something peat-flavoured with anaesthetic properties!
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:31 pm
by Dave_L
My goodness Tony.......you have my commiserations.......yawntastic! :rock:
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:31 am
by lutonlagerlout
holy moly
they are not giving those away are they?
great work tony but I wont be paying BSI £204 to look up a spec for laying concrete flags anytime soon
who pays this sort of money?
architects?
i clicked the link 20 times if that helps :;):
LLL
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:48 am
by Bob_A
If clicking on the links helps just let me know.
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:06 am
by Tony McC
As far as I know, those links only work on sales, not on clicks, but the gesture is much appreciated.
I'm a member of BSI. I pay around 150 quid a year and I get the stuff at half price, so if I only buy a couple of issues a year, I'm quids-in.
You'd be surprised at just who buys these things. Yes, I get lots of architects and designers and well-intentioned contractors asdking for pointers, but I reckon the single biggest group is the pissed-off customer who fancies himself (and it is always a him!) as a backroom barrister, so buys the relevant standard to prove the bloke from the pub has not laid the edging kerbs in strict compliance with part 6 of BS 7533.
And we've all had customers like that! :p
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:18 am
by Brucieboy
The ready mixed concrete/aggregates company I do consultancy work for pay around £2.5k per annum for access to British Standards On Line (BSOL). For that we get access to all the material/construction standards of which there are many. Each one is downloadable at no cost as long as they are within our two particular modules. It sounds a lot but as most of the standards are in excess of £100 it's good value for money. They are boring to read but nonetheless essential, especially for a materials producer.
By the way Tony, missing from your Concrete an Aggregates list is BS 8500 (Parts 1 and 2) - it's the industry standard for concrete which complements EN 206. Unfortunately neither part is available at the moment being temporarily withdrawn due an error with the wording of the recent revision.
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:01 pm
by lutonlagerlout
its the same with building regs
you think it would make sense to make it freely available to contractors
but no,we have to follow architects drawings and then stand corrected by the BCO
LLL
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:22 pm
by Brucieboy
For anyone that doesn't know, the Department for Transport "Specification for Highways Works" (all sections including Notes for Guidance and monthly updates) is available on-line free of charge via www.dft.gov.uk/ha/standards.
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:55 am
by Tony McC
I thought 8500 was sort-of replaced by EN206? Aren't they almost identical?
I had 8500 in the original version of the page but then a mate at the Concrete Centre told me not to bother with it as they only used EN206 nowadays. I can put it back in, I suppose.
Building Regs and SHW are available online for nowt. Sewers For Adoption 7th ed is harder to find and seems to be only available via the WRC and then only occasionally for reasons I cannot fathom.
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:54 pm
by Brucieboy
Tony, BS 8500 is without doubt the standard used by the concrete industry today and has been since 2002. Whilst EN 206 is the overarching European standard, the definitive requirements for the specifier (Part 1) and the producer (Part 2) are given in BS 8500.
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:25 pm
by rab1
and lads this is why no one else talks to you at the bar. 
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:44 am
by Tony McC
Rab, you'll be delighted to know that BS 8500 is now available via the website. Can I suggest that, instead of splurging all your pocket money in one go, buy Part 1 this week and then save Part 2 as a special treat for Christmas. :p
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:03 pm
by Brucieboy
Hi fellas, I enjoyed the mild pee take, made me laugh. Unfortunately when referring to British Standards and other regulations, you do come across as being a bit more than anal.
HEALTH WARNING – ONLY CONTINUE IF YOU’RE INTETESTED IN CONCRETE FOR EXTERNAL PAVING
However, the main reason for highlighting BS 8500 is that the current amendment A1 relates to, among other things, paving concrete. PAV2 (concrete for heavy duty external paving with rubber tyre vehicles) has now been increased from a C28/35 to a C32/40 along with an accompanying increase in minimum cement content and decrease in water/cement ratio. The minimum air content has also been increased – air entrainment being one of the essential factors in minimising frost damage to hardened concrete.
The reason for the change is because the last two winters have been particularly severe with respect to external paving resulting in many failures throughout the UK, some quite costly to repair and/or replace. PAV1 (concrete for house drives and domestic paving) remains the same strength (C25/30), mcc and w/c ratio along with an increase in minimum air content.
Over the years I’ve dealt with many cases where non-air entrained concrete, even C28/35, has been supplied for external paved areas and failed due to significant frost damage, quite often within a couple of years of placing. When the client decides to complain, an independent expert is invariably called to investigate. Their first port of call is the British Standard. When it’s established that a PAV2 (in the main) hasn’t been specified or supplied, the mucky stuff hits the fan and the legal bods get involved. The pound notes then start to roll along with much bum tweaking, particularly if an insurance company or pension fund joins the bandwagon. Repairing or replacing slabs is not cheap, quite often in the many thousands. When consequentials are added, e.g. delays, down time, the costs can escalate out of proportion.
There are obviously many examples of where a good quality non-air entrained concrete (generally C28/35) has been installed correctly and not suffered significant frost damage. However, abuse it, particularly if “p�ssed up� on site, and you’ll eventually pay the penalty. To be fully compliant it should be an air entrained PAV1 or PAV2 depending on the situation. Get it wrong and it could cost you dear. For more aggressive environments, e.g. scrap yards, waste transfer stations etc you’ll need a much higher specification concrete most likely incorporating steel fibres.
Be aware when laying the new PAV2, it will be a very sticky mix due to the high cement content necessary to match the increased strength. In hot weather it’s likely to “go off� quite fast, particularly if straight CEMI (OPC). Make sure you’ve got enough labour to cope. The recommended slump for PAV1 is S2 (70mm) and for PAV2 is S3 (120mm).
For those that did manage to get to the end of this, apologies in advance if you’re not the slightest bit interested – you were warned. To the limited few that were, I hope it offers some additional guidance.
Ps: If anyone wants to discuss this further, why not join me at my local for a pint. We hold a Concrete Standards discussion group every Wednesday at 8.00 pm. It’s normally attended by about 40 to 50 members. Be prepared for a late finish :rock:
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:29 pm
by rab1
thanks for letting me know Boss, just going to order them now as you cant beat a little light reading.
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:23 pm
by lutonlagerlout
fascinating stuff bruce
for me anyway
I have seen way too much concrete pished up over the years with typical groundworker comments
"it 'll find its own level" no it wont!
"never failed yet" oh yes it has!
"I have done it this way for 30 years" 30 years a cowboy then!
I always use a pavemix for garage floors and over sites,c30 +fibres,but the air entrainment is that something that can be done on volumetrics?
we have a 6 M3 pour coming up in december which the client insists is done on the 8th for various reasons.
I explained it may be too cold to pour but he is very insistent and wants a powerfloat finish
what can i do to negate adverse effects?
pour at 8 AM?
cover with hessian later on?
cheers
LLL