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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:21 pm
by Ansi
cookiewales wrote:London Stone Paving wrote:Well said Dan.
top man dan well said and written 
No completely wrong and ill researched. If you read yourself you would know this is the case. It may be relevant in many cases but it isn't in this case.
This is the problem I have with your comments *in general*, they're based on what you want to read,not what has actually happened.
pickwell paving wrote:it is hard finding a decent tradesman in an area your not familiar with hence the reason I'm working 2 hours away on a job soon just for a patio and drive. For every decent tradesman out there, there are 10 cowboys it seems like every week we're pricing against somebody new who just happens to be a paving specialist with no experience what so ever. The industry is lacking a governing body sure you've got the manufacturers own schemes but you end up paying just to sell their products.
A voice of reason. This is of course the opposite of what has been said before.
rab1 wrote:
The lads on here basically charge surgeons wages (your words) for a top class job which will be done to a higher than expected standard, so to criticize them is unfair.
No, it's entirely fair, I'm not criticising their ability, just the attitude.
To post and ask for help, and to be told tough luck I have no sympathy and you chose on price is uncalled for and it's not correct.
rab1 wrote:
From what I gather from your original post is: you paid for a small area to be paved/pointed at an agreed cost at the 2nd lowest cost given with no real specification of what you wanted given.
Is that a criticism? How would I know a spec. Do you know what a moire pattern is? Do you know what a shiner is? I expect not and I wouldn't expect you to; that's my job! I know my onions and earn well as a result (practically retired now - turned 40 on Sunday). If someone comes to me they're expecting expertise and they're expecting to pay for it.
rab1 wrote:
The Boss started this web page to help the likes of yourself and always informs of best practice along with top notch advice all at his own cost.
As previously stated using some of the guidance on this site has led me down this path (though there is more to it than that).
rab1 wrote:
Granted your not happy but why not call back your contractor and explain you concerns and how you would like the process of repair to continue.
To be fair that was the whole point of the post; to find out how to rectify and what is best practice. I knew from this site some of the detail but even then some of that is unclear. I'm still a bit confused about the whole subbase thing - do you need one or not.
My gut feel though is that they won't want to rectify it. I can't see that you can without starting again and I can't see that happening. Realistically I'll wait for my ACL repair to heal and do it myself.
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:31 pm
by Ansi
cookiewales wrote:ansi i am in the top end of paving or so i like to think but because the stone was only 12 pound m2 does not mean a cheap job should happen i put down the same base for 12 pound stone which is good or 100 pound plus new york stone but do charge more for the 100 pound plus stone to lay six hundred pound is cheap but also can be done if in one day ie free tip hard core still needed sand cement pointing no cuting min sand cement bed and cash in hand at the end of play ps i go to lots of jobs where clients have wasted thoushands on cowboys but still want a cheap job i say look at our work and compare like for like the guys on here do what it says on the tin we are proud tradesmen and have a love for the job ps i allways use smileys
I reckon it will take me two days when fit. I can dig like a navvy when the need takes me.
In my opinion it's no more than a day's work for someone experienced but again could be wrong there.
Hopefully to call an end to barracking I'll say the following.
I asked for help. I don't think I deserved the degree of opprobrium that was levelled at me and I certainly didn't expect it. I'm a professional and I don't behave in that manner and I'm accustomed to being afforded the same courtesy.
Anyway, if you really want to see more pictures I'll post some tomorrow.
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:55 pm
by local patios and driveway
all this quoting sure is making my head spin and the thread boring. probably why i lay dig holes, lay slabs and blocks all day...
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:58 pm
by Carberry
Whatever the state of your patio the contractor has not done what he said he would do ie: put down 100mm sub base. Whether it needs it or not is hard to say over the internet, it depends on ground conditions, chances are that amount is unnecessary but regardless, he said he would put that in for the agreed upon price and should have.
Get him back, give him your snag list - every problem with your patio pointed out by the forum members and tell him he isn't getting paid until it is sorted.
When you say raised lip, how big a difference is it? 3mm? 5? 10?
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:28 pm
by jonnyboyentire
Ansi
Apparently you know your onions in your own field and when people come to you for your expertise they are prepared to pay (handsomely it appears reading between the lines) for it. Yet from your posts it also appears you don't think that rule applies to us. You run a galactically-successful business and are almost retired on the proceeds of it all, yet you went for the cheap price for the job. You only got two confirmed quotes. You come across very vocally with the attitude that you can apparently do a better job than any tradesman yourself and yet you wonder why you've had bad experiences with tradesmen????? Surprised you can't see the connection, frankly.
You haven't paid for the job anyway, you're not happy, so speak to the contractor. Surely pre-retirement at age 40 in your massively successful business you came aross problems with suppliers/clients and had ways of solving them?????
I was going to use some big flash words as well to give balance, but I don't feel the need to show off my language skills, I don't feel superior at all to my peers here.
Good luck with it.
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:14 pm
by Ansi
jonnyboyentire wrote: yet you went for the cheap price for the job. You only got two confirmed quotes.
You can't infer that at all from what's been said. That it was cheaper is not disputed, but that was not the reason it was chosen.
jonnyboyentire wrote:
You come across very vocally with the attitude that you can apparently do a better job than any tradesman yourself
If you believe I said that then quote me. You won't be able to since I know without looking that I didn't say that. Contemporaries of yours in this thread have agreed with my sentiments.
When I employ a professional, I expect them to be able to do a job better than me, faster than me and hopefully (by virtue of the first two points) cheaper than I can.
Since I've been here, I only know two trademen that can do all three and I'm quite shocked by how few can manage even one. I haven't had a single complaint about trades until my 39th year since I've never had cause to find a trade blind; I've always had family to rely on for recommendation if there isn't a trade in the family.
jonnyboyentire wrote:
and yet you wonder why you've had bad experiences with tradesmen????? Surprised you can't see the connection, frankly.
Clearly I can see the connection. I think I've been fairly explicit throughout. I have difficulty with amateurs professing to be able do a professional job. That's the disctinction I've made throughout, the problem as I perceive is that you (as a professional) are outnumbered by the chancers by at least 10 to 1. Pareto's principle appears to apply to the trades too.
The difficulty from my perspective is how, in an alien environment, without prior knowledge, to sort the wheat from the chaff
jonnyboyentire wrote:
You haven't paid for the job anyway, you're not happy, so speak to the contractor.
How many times have I got to say that this is the point of the post; I need information.
jonnyboyentire wrote:
Surely pre-retirement at age 40 in your massively successful business you came aross problems with suppliers/clients and had ways of solving them?????
You're reading words that aren't there again. Modestly successful would be nearer the mark. I'm a very small fish in a very large pond though I have a couple of niche products that we have little competition on.
And yes of course we have problems but I don't have to ask for an expert opinion since I am an expert. The intention is to go forward with as much information as possible as I've stated before and make my case to the contractor. My gut feel though is that he won't correct it. We'll see though. On close examination, just about every slab is rocking, so I don't see that a second attempt would be any better.
jonnyboyentire wrote:
I was going to use some big flash words as well to give balance, but I don't feel the need to show off my language skills, I don't feel superior at all to my peers here.
Yet you clearly think I feel superior. That's just the way I speak and sometimes only one word will suit. I don't make assinine assumptions of people based on their choice of words.
In context, semantics are all we have; this is a forum after all. As such I choose my words carefully.
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:15 pm
by local patios and driveway
troll
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:21 pm
by jonnyboyentire
local patios and driveways wrote:troll
Have we got a smiley for "duck!! incoming!!" ????
ROFL
Come on then lads, who's gonna own up to doing this job and keeping schtumm on this thread, which may be it's intended purpose after all, smoking out???
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:22 pm
by GB_Groundworks
kinda given up on this thread with the sweeping generalisation that all trademen are crap or out to rob ppl not my experience apart from ppl buying on price and not on skill and specification and getting a crap job.
from a photographers point of view for someone that retouches pictures for a living that first one is crap ..... haha see what ive done there are all light adjustment specialists on an equal footing lol
those prices are out of date, tony who runs the site not for profit is unwell and unable to maintain the wealth of knowledge on this site
so as youve not paid get them pack to do it to your satisfaction, i charge £100 a metre for Indian sandstone with a border.
also you come across as some what confrontational which has got a few ppls backs up and the multiple quoting thing is annoying imho :0
so lets all chill out have a sip of beer, corona with lime for myself 
and help this guy get the patio he wants.
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:24 pm
by GB_Groundworks
getting silly so putting an end to it.