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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:42 pm
by williams
Definately coming in 
sounds like theres a loophole in the respect you can drain onto a lawn/ bed and i assume soakaway.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/genpub/en/1115316438436.html
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:11 pm
by Tony McC
I, too, was gobsmacked by that eejit claiming the cost diff was a paltry 300 quid (6%). The blocks alone account for more than that. Do you think, perhaps, that he was blagged by the installer? However, I have noticed a number of 'comments' and media pieces over the last month or so that are vastly under-estimating the cost implications of all this, and you begin to wonder if there isn't some sort of conspiracy to convince the public that it's greedy contractors being opportunistic and bumping up the price. Most *genuine* costings I've seen over the summer vary from 20-50% cost increases compared to conventional block paving.
Anyway, a day later than promised, the government has finally published the "Guidance" and, while it's not as bad as might have been feared, it's a long way short of what it should have been, and I can't help feeling that more credence was given to those experts in construction, the RHS, than to contractors and paving specialists.
You can read about the document, and download your own copy, via the News page on this site.
The phrase "clear as mud" springs to mind.
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:34 pm
by Injured
So if we install none permable paving with a hidden soakaway how will they know this complies? Do they have to come and inspect the soakaway as you construct it? They do say any non permable paving over 5sq m needs planning application is this true if you install a soakaway or "rain garden" etc?
Very confusing
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:52 pm
by derekoak
I am in the midst of doubling the area of impermeable paving in my front garden. The sub base and kerbs have been in for some time. Do you think I can carry on past Oct 1st? I already had to get Planning 2 years ago to widen the drive entrance
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:00 pm
by Tony McC
Injured makes a valid point. One of my concerns going back to when this scheme was announced is the fact that ours is a largely unregulated trade and the customer has to be able to trust the installer to carry out the more-expensive-than-normal work in a professional manner. That creates the conditions that are ripe for exploitation, and, as we all know, there are far too many cowboys out there willing to exploit such a situation.
Regarding the 5m² condition, my reading of the guidance is that, as long as the paving is permeable, or drained to a suds installation or some description (rain garden, soakaway, etc.) planning permission will NOT be required. The only situation the would require PP seems to be an impermeable pavement draining onto a public highway. As I say in the news article, the possibility of draining into the existing SW system is not made clear.
Derekoak - I'd say that you'd be OK to carry on.
Edited By Tony McC on 1221152519
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:12 pm
by ColinP
Hi All
Am i right in thinking this new legislation comes into place as of Oct 1st. Im starting, and hopefully finishing mine on w/c 22nd Sept. Booked the week off work and everything for it........
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:26 pm
by Tony McC
Yep - October 1st is implementation date, giving 20,000 landscape and paving contractors a whole two weeks and six days to change their business plans and working practices.
Is there any other industry that would allow itself to be treated so shabbily?
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:37 pm
by ColinP
just another inspired process and decision from the fools we allow run our country.......
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:58 pm
by williams
I was just about to post a reply giving the pdf tont has.
I must admit that after reading that i,m much less worried.
Basically in their eyes permeable means that as long as the water is contained in the property by means of gravel,permeable paving,rain garden,bed,lawn or soakaway then theres no problem.
So i will just fit soakaways or drain to bed/lawn etc.
If the ground is bad clay which will not drain at all then i will fit an overflow at the top of the soakaway which can connect to the storm drain.
This is how i have read it. I ve had a long discussion with calvin from brett technical and we both have read it that way.
I think its only a case of planning permission if the water drains into a road(which your not meant to do anyway) or potentially a storm drain.
I think we will all be ok. (i hope anyway)
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:05 pm
by williams
Tony
In your arcticle you state
'Both modular and monolithic paving will now cost more, but the document makes no mention whatsoever regarding this, which leaves the poor old contractor to explain to the customer why their driveway is now going to cost 20-50% more than was thought originally. '
Yes permeable paving will cost more however i really dont believe many will be doing it at all. A simple soakaway will suffice in most cases costing maybe a couple of hundred extra.
Again how are they going to police this?
They cant really can they.
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:01 am
by lutonlagerlout
they can intimidate BMs into giving them site addresses where block paving has been delivered
I know for a fact that the inland revenue have done this in the past as i was there when they turned up.
Ithink i mentioned this a while back but a proper soakaway is getting expensive now
4 aquacell crates
terram/multitrack
5 m 110 mm underground pipe
1 roddable BIG gully
remove 1.5M 3 of spoil
install
more like £400 for this installation,at least
am thinking a central gully in my drive would look better,plus no aggro about water discharging onto the pavement
LLL
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:56 am
by Tony McC
I don't think it will be policed. I've spoken to an admittedly small number of BCOs in six different local authorities, and not one of them has any intention of pursuing this agenda. If local homeowners apply for PP, the BCO will take the money and approve the plans unless there is something glaringly amiss.
The point made by williamspaving about the use of a soakaway is part of the problem. The number of so-called soakaways that I see convinces me that far too many installers don't know hoe to build one. A soakaway is more than a hole filled with all the off-cuts or bits of broken flagstones. However, of more concern is the fact that an unscrupulous installer could construct a token soakaway, say 400x400x400, with an overflow to the SW system, and that would actually satisfy the requirements as they now stand. This lack of clarity is my main gripe.
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:21 pm
by Injured
so if what the bco's say that you have spoken to the only change will be the cost of plans and the planning fee for the clients. So we can just carry on as before?? and advise the clients with regards to the planning applications??
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:55 pm
by williams
Within 3 weeks i will know if this is going to destroy us or not. If not which at this stage i don't think it will i,m going to celebrate by buying myself a set of steel rods and cams for my car :p 
Tony please tell me the BCO'S you spoke with were in essex :laugh:
Edited By williams on 1221242150
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:31 pm
by lilyholland
I have conflicting information: the FMB website lists the new regulations in brief and under section f says that driveways are exempt from requiring planning permission. However we have an anxious client in Richmon Borough who is insistent that unless we do his drive by Oct 1st he will need planning. Called Richmond and got very fancy, very difficult to use web link back with great picture of house and all the bits that needed PP! Drive is included with detail suggesting we use TYpe 3 as permeable sub-base. Never come across this; nor have my builders merchants!. ANyone else familiar with this, or does it go under a different name?