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Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:42 pm
by ringi
Is the G603 what Bradstone sells as “StoneFlair Natural Granite Paving Silver Grey�?
Does sealing the top before laying it reduces the risk of Picture framing?
There seem to be a very mixed message if a bridge bond is needed for a domestic path, is the bridge bond as much to seal the back as to glues it down.
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:40 am
by Tony McC
G603 is as thirsty as a sponge. I know some suppliers are looking at pre-sealing but it's unreliable.
I'm sure we've discussed this before, and quite recently.
The purpose of a bond bridge is adhesion: it's applied to ensure the paving unit is well and truly bonded to the bed. A secondary effect is that it can act as a sealant, but it is a bit hit-and-miss because a bond bridge does not always cover the whole of the base and it rarely covers the sides, so any groundwater can, in theory, rise up and penetrate the paving unit.
With G603, the best method for preventing picture framing is to saturate the stone prior to layinga nd prior to jointing. If there is a concern with groundwater blotching, then using a 6mm clean grit with 275-300kg/m³ as the bedding and a reliable permeable jointing medium will all but eliminate the risk.
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:37 am
by PavingSuperstore
Some manufacturers actually recommend using white cement in place of Portland as a result of the porosity of the stone. Also, just something to note especially if your contractor is a little green when it comes to laying granite - make sure it's laid the right way up. We've seen several instances where granite has been laid the wrong way up with the lovely swirling machine marks on the top! The smooth side is usually the underside and the textured face should be laid uppermost.
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:57 pm
by London Stone Paving
ringi wrote:Is the G603 what Bradstone sells as “StoneFlair Natural Granite Paving Silver Grey�?
Does sealing the top before laying it reduces the risk of Picture framing?
There seem to be a very mixed message if a bridge bond is needed for a domestic path, is the bridge bond as much to seal the back as to glues it down.
How's your project going ringi?
Weren't you on here ages ago?
Steve
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:34 am
by lutonlagerlout
I bet ringi has it all down and is on the next project?
are ye?
LLL
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:19 am
by Tony McC
The use of white cement with light coloured paving is covered on this page
You think machine-turned granite is a problem, George? I know of one large supplier who was asked to supply additional calibrated flagstones for a project, but they had run out so sent uncalibrated with an apology and a big discount. The customer came back and complained that they weren't suitable as they didn't have the 'stripey surface' which she liked so much. Yep: every single flag had been laid upside down with the strip-milled face uppermost!
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:55 pm
by PavingSuperstore
Could be one of our customers! We certainly have similar stories. We do our best to educate, but we sell lots of products to domestic customers who employ contractors to lay the materials so the laying process doesn't come into the sales call. We had one customer whose contractor had complained that the paving was faulty as it kept blunting his saw blades. We found out, he was using a hacksaw!
Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:07 pm
by lutonlagerlout
we have had unusual requests
if the clients paying they can have it laid sideways 
our scaffolder is doing his own drive over 300m2 in reclaimed setts
thing is he has laid all the borders sideways,because he likes them that way :O
LLL
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:26 am
by higgness
I sold a G603 granite rotunda to a nice old couple, lovely people, gave the guy as much information as possible.
He laid it himself, retired, little job to keep him busy.
They came back about 3 weeks later, he separated himself from the wife and looked at me with a funny grin, and asked how the yellow numbers on the pieces can be removed.
I kept quiet and a straight face while he talked, by my reaction he realized at the end that they were up side down, he smiled, it was hilarious, i did offer to tell the wife, he smiled again, said no, he better do that himself.
I know make it part of any conversation to explain that there is a right side up to the granite.
Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:57 am
by Tony McC
I don't like to make sweeping generalisations, but the sheer number of emails including the phrase, "I had my builder lay the flagstones...." which end badly is a growing problem.
Paving is a specialist skill. If you want a quality finish, it's not a job for jack-of-all-trades. I know there are good 'builders' out there who can and do make a fantastic job of laying paving, but far too many of these 'builders' simply pass on the work to their labourers and that's when it goes awry.
I know I've said it a million times before, but if a homeowner was going to spend 5 grand on a car for their eldest, they'd be up and down the road in it listening for strange noises, kicking the tyres, popping the bonnet, checking every millimetre of the paintwork, yet they spend 5 grand on a patio or driveway on the word of some 'builder' without checking references, looking at other jobs they've done or getting comparison quotes. Why is that?
Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:28 pm
by London Stone Paving
I also don't want to generalise but I have seen so many situations when the builder has cocked up the paving (also seen some stunning patios laid by builders as well ). It's got nothing to do with the capabilities of the builder because if a builder can build a high spec house they should have no issues whatsoever with installing a patio. It's more that maybe builders don't appreciate that the finish on a patio could and should be that of what's expected in a kitchen or bathroom. Where as a landscaper who specialises in this type of work will fully appreciate and be able to build a patio to the required finish
Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:57 pm
by lutonlagerlout
many "landscapers" I have met insist that *dot and dab* is the best technique for patios
its not about the name
its the way its done
most on here through education by this site know the proper technique
its just informing the masses that is hard work
LLL
Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:43 am
by Tony McC
"Landscapers" are the second most worrisome group, and I believe much of that is because they come from a non-construction base and far too many assume the ability to lay turf means they can also lay paving. Wrong!
At least most builders have some understanding of cementitious materials whereas many landscapers rely on guesswork and techniques that have been out of favour for decades.
Again, there are landscapers who are excellent paviors, but it's when this *assumption* takes over, that paving is little more than an extension of raking out for a flower bed or turf, that's when the huge problems start. I'm the guy who wrtote the NVQ for paving in the so-called Amenity Horticulture sector but the number of Landscapers that have even this basic qualification is pitifully small.
I know it sounds like I'm having a go at builders and landscapers, when that is not my actual intention. The key message is that paving is a specialist skill and by "having a go" too many of these other trades belittle and besmirch ours.
Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:12 am
by PavingSuperstore
I call my guys 'landscapers', but the majority of work they do is paving and from my point of view, having a slight leaning towards paving :;): I know how important it is to get this right. To me, landscaping is making sure that the paving, planting and other materials blend with the house and general environment, but not being a jack of all trades - it has to be done right. There are two things that really irritate me - the first is the general assumption that builders are better qualified than landscapers / paving contractors to lay paving. The second is when you see an immaculately laid driveway or patio that has no correlation with the features of the house. I've seen several block paving specialists show their work this way and it really makes me cringe seeing lots of intricate patterns and designs completely at odds with the house. I think that sometimes landscapers are seen to be horticulturists and this isn't always the case - there are hard-landscaping specialists and soft-landscaping specialists.
Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:09 pm
by Tony McC
But how many landscapers differentiate themselves in that manner?
When I was contracting, my resdiential paving business was 'paving and hard landscaping' but my commercial business was 'civil engineering and paving specialists'. I've always emphasised the fact that I'm only interested in (or qualified, capable of, bothered with) hard landscaping. I never, ever gave the impression that my alleged hard landscaping skills enabled me to install soft-scapes.
But the problem lies with those soft-scapers who don't qualify their supposed skills and believe, often misguidedly, that soft-scape skills give automatic ability to install hard-scapes.
When I was 12 or 13 and working as a general labourer on sites at weekends and school holidays, an old, very old, joiner (he must have been at least 45!) told me that a true tradesman knows the limit of his skills which is why he, as a joiner, never claimed to be an all-round builder or a brickie, a roofer or anything other than a joiner. That notion has stayed with me all my life.
If I wanted to be a soft-scaper, I would have got myself trained and qualified before touting myself as such. Instead, when a project needed soft-scaping, I brought in a soft-scaping specialist and let *them* be the tradesmen.
When you're taking money from clients for a professional service, it should be provided by a professional, not by a well-meaning but cack-handed amateur.