The Brew Cabin

Hi Mick

Just reading your circle saga. I've layed a few now and as Tony says it's a must to do a dry run first. What we normally do when we get the slabs laid out on the lawn and spaced properly is take measurments of the rings and draw a little diagram. Then start laying from the centre, but leaving out the centre slab. Drive a steel rod into the dead centre of the circle and attach a piece of string to it. If you lay every slab using the string as a guide you should find it easier. These kits can be a bit hit and miss, and I always try and talk the customer into having a random pattern circle. It's much easier, you lust lay the slabs to cover the required area then mark them with the srting line and pencil and cut them with your nangle grinder in situ. If you do it before the beding has gone off, you can easily just rebed them afterwards. All you need to do then is finish with a ring of bricks or setts or whatever you fancy. I could show you some pics, but I don't think I can post pics on this forum?

Good luck Alan

You can post piccies to the Brew Cabin, Alan - see the Posting Photies help file or you can send' em to me and I'll do all the technical wizardry on your behalf. :)

here's just one of Alan's photos - he's sent me a series showing the construction of the larger circle shown in this image. I might incorporate them all into a page that I want to build dealing with the construction/laying of stone circle features. If anyone within 20 miles or so of Warrington is having one laid, I'd appreciate a shout so that I can come and take pictures. :)

Alan's image..

Hi Tony/Alan,

Well we've finished putting the circle patio down (see http://community.webshots.com/album/84390664ppzHKq ) with the exception of the pointing. All I can say is there is a knack to it and we/I found it very difficult to get right. You need to be use to this sort of work. We had to cut one side of each flag on the inner ring to get it to fit and also "shave" the outer curve and finally shave the centre cirle but its all fitting (thank god dad has access to all the necessary tools). I'll have to wait til its finished and rains but we lost any fall we had planned for the circle cause we couldnt lay them right and just ended putting it in as best we could!!!

Now for the pointing. I'm really afraid to start this!!! I think the sand we have isnt fine enough for the pointing mortar, and I'm afraid that we'll stain the flag (due to the black dye), but we'll give it a go and tape the flag edges and hope for the best. Dad's looking to see if they have finer sand at work. As the pointing mortar is so dry, how well can one strike it?, As the trials I've done didnt have the best finish? Could one add plasteriser?

I've taken some photos and in them you'll see those tiles I got. In your opinion do you feel it's worthwhile putting them down, do they suit the circle, I'm unsure? In the picture you'll see the two rows of tiles, I'm thinking if I put any down maybe I'll stick with just one row? (By the way darina doesnt like/want paving blocks as the edging). The reason for the tiles is the garden plans had a 3.5m circle and cause we could only get 3m I'm unsure it this will be big enough for a/the patio? What do you think would the extra width help? If I was to put the tiles down, what sort of gap?, considering the width between the rings? tight or wide?

There's also some photos of the mowing strip, pergola and reduced paving drive.

Thanks for all the advice up till now...water feature next and also the electric cables.

Any thoughts would as usual be appreciated.

Mick

(Edited by madunphy at 5:28 pm on Aug. 5, 2003)

A lot of the 'knack' with these pre-formed circles is getting your hands on a quality item. The concrete versions are cast in moulds that are mathematically proven to fit together, but the hand-cut stone circles, especially those coming into our soggy islands as imports, are less accurate, and you're not the only person to struggle making all the pieces fit. One of the larger UK-based importers told me that the circles are cut using templates, but there was a suspiscion that no two templates were identical, and so, if segments were cut from different templates and then pacjaged together as a whole circle, there was a chjance of a mis-match. Whether this is what's happened with your circle, we'll probably never know, but it's a distinct possibility.

When it comes ot the pointing, have a look at the new page I put up showing a case study of stone flags I pointed only a couple of months ago. It does work! However, if you're really unsure about your pointing skills, have you thought of cancelling your honeymoon and buying a couple of packs of Geo-Fix instead? It's a polymeric sand that "sets" when exposed to the air and is a popular choice for jointing show-piece installations at trade shows, garden centres, etc. The stress it might save you could be worth the 20 quid/30 Euros it'd cost for a pack.

I'm really impressed with the photies; you've done a grand job with that garden of yours, Mick. I do like the tiles - I think they add a personal touch to the circle, making it look as though someone has put a deal of thought into it's design and construction and not just slapped down a bog-standard circle. And I'm with Darina - using a concrete block paver to edge that lovely stone would be a cardinal sin. The tiles are just the job!

I'd probably go for 2 courses - at 3m diameter, the circle is only just big enough to take a patio table and a few chairs, but you'll find that the chairs are right on the edge, and will be moved out beyond the edge of the circle by folk sat at the table, so adding another 300mm or so to each edge will make the whole thing feel more comfortable. Aim to keep the joint widths similar to those you have between the flags, which would, in an ideal world, be roughly 12mm.

Could you not lay out the tiles 'dry', just to see the effect and the scale of the finished project? You could set up a patio table and a few chairs, to better judge the proportions and 'comfort' of the finished circle, and then, if you're convinced that the additional tiles are the right way to go, commit them to concrete.

I like the pergola, too. That's the first time I've seen it adapted for use as a 'lean-to' pergola, and I might nick your photie to add to the Pergolas page on the main website.

Hi Tony,

hope I might still catch ya. Thanks for the comments, take whatever photos you need. Looking at the case study, is the sand you are using fine? it looks alot finer than the stuff I have. As for the geofix I'll have a look. You might not like what I'm about to tell you but we have already put some mortar in the joints to bed the flags in (as it look us 3 days over an elapsed period of 10 days!!). How will this affect the pointing exercise (either mortar/geofix)?

I'll try the tiles as you explained and report back.

Cheers

Mick

The sand used to make the pointing mortar is a building sand, which is known in some parts of Dublin as Soft sand. It is relatively fine, compared to a grit sand - think of the sand on Killiney beach: it's as fine as that, roughly. (Not that I'm suggesting sand should be misappropriated from Killiney, of course!)

Don't worry if you've buttered the joints - it won't make any difference, whether you use mortar pointing or the Geofix stuff.

Hi Tony,

As ever, wronging about details. I tried the semi-dry mortar on a sample again and I think I'd be comfortable doing it, the trick is not for it to be too wet, but "just right". Also I doubt the geofix would make the flags stand out due to the lack of colour.

Onto the tiles (150mm x 150mm), Had a go at these and I have a few questions:

1) Because the radius is quite short, the curve is "sharp" and thus to leave a gap of 10mm on the inside, makes the outside gap quite large? Obviously to counter this we have to taper the tiles. Were you expecting to taper?

2) Again because of the curve, if we go with the 2nd row, it'll mean that any joint stagger will loose itself without tapering. We could align the titles between the rows but I would say it wont look right. All this means alot of cutting and besides we cut a few and to be honest I think it takes the look off the "square" tiles (which have rounded corners).

Dilemma? We do need the extra space afforded by the two rows but it's alot of work (tapering). I think the single row would look fine uncut with the wider gap on the outside, but we need the space. So I'm back to toying with the idea of laying a single row but on the outer/2nd position and then using chippings to back fill the space. Would it look naff, has anybody seen this before?

Thanks for any advice and your Patience :biggrin:

Mick

1 - I did think you might just get away without having to taper cut the tiles, Mick. What's the radius you have? I'll try and sketch it out for myself and see how it looks.


2 - There's no way you can align the tiles of the outermost course with those of the first course without having exceptionally wide joints or cutting each and every tile on the inner course. Send me the dimensions and I'll play about with a sketch.

I think that, if you're going to use the tiles, you might as well make a decent job of them, otherwise you're going to be staring at them for years, wishing you'd spent and extra couple of hours doing the taper cutting. Let me have the circle dimensions and then I can see what works best.....

Hi Tony,

I'm keeping a watchful eye on ya!!! The tiles are approx 150mm x 150mm (give or take a few mm). The radius for the outside of the circle is 1.51m.

Tapering really does take the look off the tiles (i'll get you a photo).

Cheers

Mick

I've plotted out the layout on my CADD system and it doesn't look too bad, I reckon.....



...all drawn to scale, of course.

If you look at a close up, you can see that when you keep the inner end of the joint to 6-7mm or so, the outer end is only 22mm, which I don't think would look too bad, especially if it's pointed up neat and tidy....



...naturally, you could do a 'dry run' first to see if you get spousal approval, but I would lay it with the wider joints rather than taper cut 120-odd tiles!