Permeable paving or you need planning permission? - Disaster for tarmacers everywhere?

[williams]

i know exactly what you are saying colordrives and frankly it scares the shit out of me.
Not only now do we have a possible shaky economy we have this rubbish to contend with too.

Whoes on the payroll at interpave then? They seem to be happy to advocate this-are they fcuking stupid or something?

I also notice on there that it says gravel drives will not be acceptable because they dont meet building regs(because elderly and disabled can't use them).

Its easy for these overpaid underqualified pricks to go around making decisions that will destroy peoples livelyhoods because its not their lives being damaged.

People won't pay 50% extra and then that means we lose work,manufacturers lose out on profeits and the government loses out on tax money-did they think about that when they thought up their latest idea that peoples domestic drives are causing floods.

Am i being thick but if we get severe rain is it really going to make any difference if the water drains into a tank or the ground or the local river/resovoir,i seriously doubt it.

I,m really pissed off tbh.

Now you know why people commit fraud,sell drugs and the rest of it

[Tony McC]

I can see this turning into one long thread. The lack of information form the govt, combined with the partial info being put out by Interpave (well, they aren't likely to make the case for non-concrete paving options, are they?) and the total lack of consultation with those of us in the trade are making many contractors extremely worried. I've spent the bulk of the past three weeks doing nothing else but talk to contractors about the implications of this well-intentioned but ill-conceived vote-losing strategy from the Muppets of Marsham Street.

To answer points raised by colordives and williams...

My understanding is that, if a working and correctly construtred soakaway is provided (or a swale, rain garden, etc) this will remove the need to apply for planning permission as long as it handles ALL of the surface water from the paving and does not rely on an overflow to a public sewer to handle any surcharge.

The issue of "dodgy soakaways" as colordrives refers to them is a major conern to me. Even now, in the 21st century, I find some contractors believe that a 1m x 1m x 1m hole, dug into any type of ground and backfilled with any old crap they can find constitutes a soakaway. This week, I've been dealing with a job where a contractor has claimed that a 1 cubic metre soakaway is "standard", even when the paving totals in excess of 190 square metres.

The issue of cost is one that the aforesaid muppets are conveniently overlooking. By transferring responsibility for surface water management from the fat-cat water boards and govt bodies to the hard-pressed homeowner, they are (they hope) reducing the need to invest in further WTW infrastructure. Expecting homeowners to calmly accept a 50% increase in costs for residential paving is naive. If these homeowners were to be offered a subsidy, much as is offered for roof insulation, then the scenario would be more realistic.

However, the homeowners are facing a one-off cost increase. Those in the trade are facing financial ruin as demand for their skills dries up (for want of a better metaphor) and the totally unregulated cowboy element take advantage of the situation by offering allegedly permeable paving and so-called soakaways that don't reveal their true colours until long after the cheque has been cashed, while honest, skilled craftspeople are forced out of the industry because they simply cannot compete.

Gravel as a paving surface is the option being most heavily favoured by the RHS without realising that it is not always suitable, especially when elderly or disabled persons have to use the pavement. Then we get some half-wit alleged scientist on the BBC's "One Show" broadcast on Weds April 2nd claiming that turf is the cheapest paving option! Since when was turf a paving material. Eejit!

A big part of the problem with this scheme at the moment is that it's been announced before anyone has fully thought it through. No-one seems to know when and how it will be implemented. I've been told October is the most likely launch, but that's only a 'likelihood', not a fact. The politicos and mandarins don't talk to anyone in the residential trade, only to manufacturers and selective trade bodies, who see new marketing opportunities for their own narrow sector of the industry, but there's no proper overview which encompasses block paving, PIC, bitmac, gravel, natural stone, resins and all the other materials we use.

I'll keep pushing to find out what I can, and I'll publish any news as soon as I'm made aware of it, but I can see a big problem looming at the other side of summer.

[williams]

Thanks for this reply tony.
To be honest the more i think about it the more i don't think any real problems will arise.
number 1 is the fact this simply isn't something which can be policed. So if i install a driveway with a bed filed with stone it seems to be able to cover my arse should any questions about planning arise-i,m simply making sure the drainage is on their own property-i think of the last few jobs i,ve done and every single one would have an answer that being use of a stone filled trench-who knows if ALL the water drains into that and some into the road-are people going to come and start looking at it with levels to check where the water flows- i think not.

Its an unworkable idea as i keep saying-i,m sure someone from interpave has an interest in the government or vice versa as the gumph on there is in its masses.

my local council say they have heard nothing so don't worry-they agreed with everything i said too.

And i do wonder that what they are really trying to say is don't tip the water into a SEWER pipe which is fair enough-if you stick it in an existing rain water drain i can't see any problems.

More scaremongering from the bbc and the government

plus either way whoes going to actually comply (unless the fines are huge) as to be honest we all have to earn a crust.

[mark39]

the people who think these things through are just from another planet the problem why the drains in the roads over flow is mostly down to new housing developments most mains severs are donkeys years old and undersized for the modern world
eg .a main sewer on one road 10 years ago had 100 houses on that street now a new housing development pops up and then there is 200 new homes linked up to the same old sewer system and bingo heavy rain fall it carnt cope
its not rocket science is it
but lets face it the goverment and water companies wont spend money on this problem so they have looked else ware for problem causes and it seems that were it .
we are the cheapest excuse to the problem water companies get richer paving firms go bust..
if you work in heavy clay areas like we do your knackered !!!
normal working class people wont be able to afford to have the permable paving fitted we live and work around old mining towns and its getting harder as it is to get work due to gypos
i agree with the earlier comment that they will have a field day when this comes in !!!!!
these so called experts want shafting i wonder if the water companies have had a big input in this outcome !!! jobs for the boys ect when its time to leave westminster and get a job on the board ....

[Pablo]

I think the legislation only requires Suds if the soil is able to cope with it. If you are paving over a heavy impermeable base then you are not expected to install a Suds. In theory the local planning office will know where in their area may and may not be suitable.

[matt h]

if people are draining their own properties, they should be entitled to a reduction in their water drainage bills surely...

[MRA]

Existing public drainage is still being used that was most likely built in the Victorian era to handle Victorian quantities of excess water. In some areas of the country, even though new sites are being built on, the drains are running at 95% the maximum.

The cost of replacing and/or installing more efficient drainage would run into truly horendous figures. This initiative of installing permeable paving (of whatever type) is essentially a sneeky backdoor way by the government to getting the public to foot the bill for the potential solutions.

Also, SUDS are not suitable for everywhere by any means. There are many caveats involved which will determine the necessity of such drainage; further to this, SUDS will also be predominately used in urban or built up areas (hence the name) and even then only if ground conditions are suitable. Rural areas will still be laid using traditional CBP.

One point to remember, anyone who knows anyone that has been involved in the governments Home Information Pack drive would be aware of the constant, damaging back pedaling by Labour due to the completely incompentent manner the HIP (including the Home Condition Report (not defunct) and the Energy Efficiency Report) was introduced. Although the subject manner is different, the pattern is there to see.