Ethical stone - Is this actually an issue?

[Tony McC]

So: MickG and meself took ourselves down to that London yesterday to attend a meeting of the Ethical Trade Initiative (ETI) regarding the stone industry in Rajasthan.

I'll write more about what was said and what I think in a news item later, but for now, I'm interested to hear from anyone else just what they think about the supply of ethically-sourced stone.

I know most, if not all, of us would agree with the aims of the ETI (no child/slave labour; living wage; H&S; welfare, etc.) but how often are we asked about the source of the materials we supply and install. From the emails and calls that come in to the website I suspect it's a relatively rare occurrence, but is that just me?

Should we be encouraging our customers to insist on ethically-sourced paving? Should we be actively promoting the ETI? Is it just a case of a wealthy western country imposing its own middle-class aspirations on a developing nation? How much of a premium do you think we should be prepared to pay to ensure the stone we lay is ethical? Can paving improve the lives of those less fortunate than ourselves?

What's the view from the trenches?

[PavingSuperstore]

All the products we sell are from suppliers who belong to the ETI, but I can count on two fingers the customers who have ever asked. One of those two refused to buy Indian stone on the basis that she didn't believe there was actually any control over the exploitation in India and the ETI was just a marketing ploy.
So there we have it.

[higgness]

One or two customers in the last 3 years have spoken about this, as soon as the price of home produced slabs came up, the conversation changed immediately.

[lutonlagerlout]

our soon to be last customer is a strict baptist
he was appalled when i mentioned indian stone

but after a brief chat with steve LSP we soon cleared up the facts that masons in India earn relatively good money for the local economy

My labourer earns 19 grand a year, he is always moaning about gas bills lack of money etc.

he would like more money but the same as in India local market forces dictate the price you can ask for your toil

from what i have heard of india (never been and zero interest) its better to be working than not working

LLL

[mickg]

I went to London with an open mind seeing as it was the first ETI meeting regarding responsible sourcing of sandstone from Rajasthan in India plus I an actually travelling to India the first week in December for a tour of the Marshalls factories and will see at first hand how the stone is quarried and processed into the various finishes we see.

Tony and myself discussed the ETI meeting very briefly on the way down but it was brief and we continued talking about other paving in general which certainly made the 2 hour train journey pass very quickly and continued with similar paving conversation on the journey home too, nothing better than 2 guys talking shop about a subject we both love.

I have never ever been asked the question by a customer "is the sandstone we install ethically sourced" but that may be because they have already chosen the Fairstone product from the Marshalls brochure and have got up to speed from the ethically sourcing information in the brochure - I have never asked the client that question either but will do from this day forward just for additional customer feedback.

The biggest shock I found out from the ETI meeting was the small amount of stone from India what goes to export around the world, its 4% of the total stone quarried actually goes to the export market but no figure was mentioned on the percentage what is imported into the UK yet we are leading the way with ethically sourced sandstone from India ?

I have asked if I can have a copy of the powerpoint presentation so I can study it in more detail as I am sure I will of missed a few of the main points discussed which will hopefully answer a few more question that I have now raised with myself relating to the meeting.

I know for a fact I have 100's of question what require answers relating to this subject both while I am in India and when I return so I pray the guy taking me round the manufacturing plants and quarries has done "ALL" of his homework

I will be taking lots of video of the India trip and will be doing a blog post of this subject when I return, Tony Mc has kindly said he will post it on paving expert.

Chris Harrop, Group Marketing Director of Marshalls plc kindly informed that I can show every aspect of the Marshalls factories and the quarries in India which I think is absolutely fantastic seeing as on other occasions I have asked can I take photos of manufacturing plants and I have been declined.

[ilovesettsonmondays]

Where you in ilford mick;)

[mickg]

no centre of London :p

[mickg]

Write up on the ETI meeting
ETI Meeting in London

[bobbi o]

You got any more pics of the girl with the long blonde hair, wearing the black dress and sitting at the front ?

[lutonlagerlout]

we should clean our own house first to be honest
since this latest recession started there are far too many big fiirms taking the peesh out of lads with zero hour contracts and all sorts of charges on their pay packet
lads i know on site have to pay an "agency" fee of £20 to release their check every week

wages in some trades (shuttering for example) have dropped by 50% yet every possible bill has risen,the only thing keeping a lot of folk afloat is the low mortgage rate

anyway as for india its a fantastic idea,but so was colonising mars
cheers LLL

[Tony McC]

I suspect colonising Mars might happen before we see nation-wide improvements to the stone supply industry in India.

It baffles me why we, the west, are driving this. India is NOT a poor nation. They have nukes and they are planning their own space exploration programme, FFS, but we are funding improvements to basic employment rights. There's summat intrinsically wrong with a government which gives priority to blasting some poor sod into space over protecting thousands of their people who are blasting rock from a hole in the ground.

I've had some very interesting feedback via email and phone calls, but some people don't want to go public, which I feel is stifling debate and preventing good ideas and alternative thinking from coming to the fore. Amongst some suppliers who've been in touch, there seems to be a sense that, if they put their heads up above the parapet to voice concerns with the current approach, they'll be shot down as though they somehow prefer to do nothing or are willing to tolerate exploitation as long as it keeps their profit margins up. Almost without exception, the correspondents I've spoken to want to do something, but want to do something that will be effective and permanent.

Only an open and frank debate can do that, so again, I urge those who are lying low to speak their mind. There's nothing I've heard so far that shouldn't be aired for wider discussion. Post using a pseudonym, if you must, but at least put those ideas and those suspicions into the public arena so they can be explored more fully.

[London Stone Paving]

It baffles me why we, the west, are driving this. India is NOT a poor nation. They have nukes and they are planning their own space exploration programme, FFS, but we are funding improvements to basic employment rights. There's summat intrinsically wrong with a government which gives priority to blasting some poor sod into space over protecting thousands of their people who are blasting rock from a hole in the ground.

I think you've answered your own question there Tony

[London Stone Paving]

I've had some very interesting feedback via email and phone calls, but some people don't want to go public, which I feel is stifling debate and preventing good ideas and alternative thinking from coming to the fore. Amongst some suppliers who've been in touch, there seems to be a sense that, if they put their heads up above the parapet to voice concerns with the current approach, they'll be shot down as though they somehow prefer to do nothing or are willing to tolerate exploitation as long as it keeps their profit margins up. Almost without exception, the correspondents I've spoken to want to do something, but want to do something that will be effective and permanent.

Only an open and frank debate can do that, so again, I urge those who are lying low to speak their mind. There's nothing I've heard so far that shouldn't be aired for wider discussion. Post using a pseudonym, if you must, but at least put those ideas and those suspicions into the public arena so they can be explored more fully.

Its a real shame that people are afraid to air there views. London Stone are ETI members and we have been involved with this project from conception. I sit through all the meetings and one thing is for sure, WE havent got all the answers. Its a process of learning and the more points of view we can get, the better.

Would it not be possible for you to post these opinions on there behalfs Tony? That was they dont have to put their heads above the parapet and we get the benefit of their ideas. It doesnt matter whether the feedback is positive, negative, constructive or whatever, it would be massively beneficial to hear it.

Thourougly enjoyed reading your blog (I think you've missed your calling in life) and thought it was spot on. Started to write a post to respond to it but I keep getting sidetracked

[mickg]

India has just sent a spaceship to Mars
At a cost of 45 million

The Asian country, which has widespread poverty, has spent more than £600million in total on its space programme.

We are still giving 280 million a year aid, last year India's then finance minister Pranab Mukherjee said UK aid was “a peanut in our total development expenditure�.

so while the people are starving and living in poverty the Indian government thinks its a good idea to launch a spaceship to a far away planet......where are the ethics here ?

[PavingSuperstore]

We cannot control the nation and its spending - the best we can hope to achieve is civil working practices and control over the people we, in the UK do business with in the Indian quarries. India is now a wealthy nation - I can only speculate that they don't have a benefit system offered to people who don't want to work, so there is more of a drive for people to find work in India. This keenness to work also provides the basis to exploit workers. That said, there is always a balance - the compensation culture in this country is like a disease eating away at the nation - I cannot imagine the Indian workers complaining about their working conditions and demanding compensation.