Epoxy hell - don't add rain - Indian stone - blooming/efflorescence

[ATL11]

Hi, having an extension at the back of the House, which meant the Back Garden needed Landscaping.

Last Week, Monday through to Wednesday, the builders laid the Black Indian Stone (Builder has said it's Limestone). Everything looked good, finishing off the Paving Thursday morning with Grout and Sealing, but as they finished off the work the Heaven’s opened.

The Paving was quickly covered with Tarp & weighed down with a few plant pots. Checked with the builder, he said it was okay to take the Tarp off late Friday (by then it’d finished raining, but had rained solid for over 24hrs). Removed the tarps, though nothing of it, path was still damp but still looked nice. (Assume you know where I'm going).

Saturday was the first chance it got to dry, most of Saturday I was away from the House, I’d not looked at the paving that morning, assuming what I’d seen Friday evening; everything was okay.

Whilst I was away from the House, the builder called Saturday Lunch saying he wanted to Pop back to finish off some work. When he’d finished this work he called to say the Paving had a few white marks & this could be corrected with resealing, (Thompson Water Seal was mentioned). Thinking nothing off it, I returned home that evening to be confronted by an angry Wife, not too happy at how the path had dried, along with the understanding we had to correct. I can only describe the Paving as a Mess.

It has what the Builder later has said are “Bloom marks�. The bloom marks even show where the Tarp has rested on the sealant, the pattern of the Tarp, bloom marks in the shapes of plant pots which weighed down the Tarp & the best are what I can only describe as Disco Inferno Slug Trails. The strangest thing is you can look at the paving from above and it looks perfect, but from other angles you see the white marks!

So Sunday morning, off the back of the instructions from the builder we set too, first to see if we could remove the white marks no chance! We used, water, Soap & Water, Yard Brush like a Curling Team, then Jet Wash, without budging. Last resort we bought a sealant remover (LTP Solvex) & tested it on a small Paving Slab. After a couple of applications, it kind of removed the sealant but the white marks were there. A good jet wash of the treated paving & the dastardly white marks are still there.

Called the Builder.

The Builder came round, saying the white marks should disappear with water and then reseal, we passed him a jug of water, then watched the colour drain from his face, as he realised, there wasn’t going to be a simple fix.

After a few calls from the Builder to the Manufacturer of the Sealant, sorry I’ve forgotten the name but I know it’s a local Brew from a local shop, a 2 tub Epoxy Resin.

So to the crux of the story & why I’m posting.

The fix is for the paving to be Sand Blasted or to wait 3 to 6 months for the Sealant to wear off.

I’m going for the Sand Blasting as it will drive me daft staring at the Disco Slug Trails for so long. I’ve been told the blasting will take the top layer off the paving & it’ll be a little rougher.

So have I taken the right decision? Shall I Sand Blast?

Why I’m on again it rained this morning, the water is pooling on the slabs were the sealant remains, with some oil discolouration. Assume the oil is some seeping from the Resin, but the pooling of the water is there a way of avoiding this, as it looks well ‘Poor’.

Any advice I’d be grateful, on the sandblasting & the options of the pooling of water vs Sealant options.

Regards

Andy
Can provide pictures if it’ll help.

[bodgeitandscarper]

Pics please

[ATL11]

Try this, thanks:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/atl11/

Should be 4 photos, 1 showing the Water beading this morning, 1 pre sealant and then 2 showing the different effects of the so called 'Blooming', thanks.

Andy

[msh paving]

we need more info...
thompson water seal should NEVER be used on indian sandstone,it is not a sealer for the aplication you have.
what was the joints pointed with?
forget the sandblasting idea it will take the surface from the slabs and look a mess,
later tonight the resident pressure washing/cleaning man will be around roger oakley from R&A pressure washing he will give you the best advice to which chemical to use to clear it
what is the builder response, from the pictures it looks a well laid job

MSH

[nry]

Looks like the tarp etc. were put down on still tacky sealant hence the marks...I'm going to guess at some form of abrasion to remove them but as I'm not the expert, I suggest the R&A chap above may well reply with the correct response later

Black Indian Stone isn't Indian Sandstone is it? Just curious, looks nice

[ATL11]

hi, Thompson water seal was something the builder recommended to fix what he thought was a simple problem. so he's since realised it something more serious, so we've moved away from that.

just found out the product used was called resiply.

http://www.resiply.co.uk/

apparently if we use a pressure washer and chemicals it'll cost £700 to strip off, due to the chemicals costing £20 a sq metre and there's 35sq meters. and it'll damage the joints too.

being told sand blasting is the only option other than waiting.

[ATL11]

nry I thought it was sandstone but builder said it was limestone but not sure which is right?

[nry]

Google suggests it is Kota Black Limestone, which seems to get called Black Indian Stone. Pictures look like the work you have done, which I do like, shame on the sealant issue!

[ATL11]

nry, looking at Google & Kota Black Limestone, it does look like Kota, and would be why the Builder has referred to it as Limestone.

Oh & don't get me wrong the work on the paving was fantastic, it was just a shame on the selant.

Whilst positing this, have since spoke again to the Builder and he's said this has happened twice before on Resiply. On both occaisions the same bloke corrected the problem with a now renamed 'Light Sand Blasting' and then resealing.

I'm being pragmatic about it all, worst things happen at Sea. We'll just wait and see what Roger Oakley says and for the Sand Blasting bloke to come and look at the Paving.

Just added a couple more phots of the other side of the garden to show the rest of the Paving.

[nry]

Time will tell, I reckon it's the sealant marking things with the tarp on before it as dry, not anything to do with the jointing product.

[lutonlagerlout]

ATL11
i would leave well alone, once you open that can it can be bottomless
it looks a fair job apart from the in situ cutting round the manhole
I can understand your concerns but you will be surprised how quick the good old british weather does its stuff
IMHO
LLL

[RAPressureWashing]

ATL11

Just had a look at the photos, the Thompson's water based s**t will come off quite easy, it is the other marks that might need a bit of work. Personally I wouldn't go the sand blast route, messy time consuming. The best & easiest route and to get the finish that you thought you were going to get would be to get the surface stripped of the Thompson's and the surface lightly honed at the same time, and remove any mortar marks etc, so a floor buffing machine less mess and for this sort of work a better finish. I noticed you are in Wigan so around 250 miles away from where we work, but if you want to email me info@rapressurewashing.co.uk I can put you in touch with a company that can deal with this. This is the fourth black limestone patio in the last 10 days that has been ruined by builders, etc that we have been called about !!!
One has had Thompson's patio & drive sealer applied and failed after 2 days, when will people learn.
Just a ballpark figure for stripping/cleaning, so getting all marks etc off vacuum dry and re-sealing with a proper Limestone/Sandstone sealer would be around £30.00 per square meter and could be done in 1 day but allow 2 days.

[ATL11]

ATL11

Just had a look at the photos, the Thompson's water based s**t will come off quite easy, it is the other marks that might need a bit of work. Personally I wouldn't go the sand blast route, messy time consuming. The best & easiest route and to get the finish that you thought you were going to get would be to get the surface stripped of the Thompson's and the surface lightly honed at the same time, and remove any mortar marks etc, so a floor buffing machine less mess and for this sort of work a better finish. I noticed you are in Wigan so around 250 miles away from where we work, but if you want to email me info@rapressurewashing.co.uk I can put you in touch with a company that can deal with this. This is the fourth black limestone patio in the last 10 days that has been ruined by builders, etc that we have been called about !!!
One has had Thompson's patio & drive sealer applied and failed after 2 days, when will people learn.
Just a ballpark figure for stripping/cleaning, so getting all marks etc off vacuum dry and re-sealing with a proper Limestone/Sandstone sealer would be around £30.00 per square meter and could be done in 1 day but allow 2 days.

Roger, thanks for the response, though sorry as there may have been something lost in translation. The paving has been covered in a product called Resiply & we've confirmed through 'nry' the stone is Kota Black.

Thompson was just 1 of the first options the builder offered as a solution, before he knew the full extent of the issue.

Ironically & impressively, I've this evening spoke (he called me) to the Manufaturer & Patent holder of the Resiply product. He's sending someone to look at the paving tomorrow.

So we are going to go from there to see what the next steps are.

Thanks for the advice on the approach for fixing this, want to see what feedback we get from tomorrow? To see if I'll need those contact details for the North West Company.

Andy

[Tony McC]

thompson water seal should NEVER be used on indian sandstone,it is not a sealer for the aplication you have.

Mark,

absolutely no need for most of the quote sentence.

Save your fingers, mate - you could have just put a full stop after "used" and left it at that! ;~)

[London Stone Paving]

Just for clarification it's cuddapah black Indian limestone.
Whatever you do, please don't allow anyone to sandblast that stone. I buy a lot of stone from India and have seen black limestone that's been sandblasted. It looks absolutely crap, the sandblasting process will completely change the colour of the stone to a speckled effect of black and chalky white.

Like Luton says, don't panic. This problem is fixable but whatever you do, don't sandblast it and don't apply any more chemicals to it until you have fully considered all the available options.

The issue here is not the type of sealant used but the fact that it was tarped over while still wet and that if poured with rain for 24 hours immediately after the application of the sealant. I'm not vouching for resiply sealant mind.

Like roger, I see my fair share of this type of problem. We have also successfully fixed all the issues. I am away until Thursday but when I get back I will speak to Gary, my dry treat rep, he always has a solution for these issues.

Please don't do anything till you have heard back from me.