Even the concrete products supplied by Marshalls and Bradstone etc will fade away eventually. I think that only the outside surface of these products is dyed, so if you get a scratch or a chip, doesnt matter how good the dye is. You will be left with unsightly concrete.
Back on to subject, I've used pigments on many occasions and the colour is never anything like you expect it to be and they always fade further over time.
You say its difficult to use pigments, I'll definately agree with you on that. All the guys on here are very competent people and if they struggle to use pigments effectively, then pigments are not a suitable product to be used by anybody except specialist pigment contractors (if such a thing exists )
Whats the point in struggling with something when there are better products ( easipoint ) out there
have to agree with steve here
concrete roof tiles fade
concrete block paving fades
and slabs lose their lustre after a few year
(stonemarket millstone seems to last well but costs a pretty penny)
btw are you a new bruce or the same bruce who informs us so well on concrete?
cheers LLL
London Stone Paving wrote:Even the concrete products supplied by Marshalls and Bradstone etc will fade away eventually. I think that only the outside surface of these products is dyed, so if you get a scratch or a chip, doesnt matter how good the dye is. You will be left with unsightly concrete.
Back on to subject, I've used pigments on many occasions and the colour is never anything like you expect it to be and they always fade further over time.
You say its difficult to use pigments, I'll definately agree with you on that. All the guys on here are very competent people and if they struggle to use pigments effectively, then pigments are not a suitable product to be used by anybody except specialist pigment contractors (if such a thing exists )
Whats the point in struggling with something when there are better products ( easipoint ) out there
LLL – a different Bruce (his christian name, my surname).
With regard to mnlad743(Bruce)’s comments about pigments, technically he is right. The pigments (often referred to incorrectly on this forum as dyes) available from most builders merchants, e.g. Cementone, Wickes own brand (made by Cementone), Sika etc are all iron oxides and are identical to those used by the pre-packed mortar manufacturers such as Parex (Easipoint), Instarmac etc.
However, the reason that hand-mixed coloured mortars generally don’t make the grade is due to lack of technology and know-how. There are a number of factors involved:
1. The quality of the cement. Most manufacturers will use a 52.5 N/mm2 strength CEMI (formally known as OPC) and occasionally White Cement, also 52.5 N/mm2. Joe Public will normally use a General Purpose Cement available from most builders merchants which typically has a strength of 32.5 N/mm2.
2. The quality of the sand. Most manufacturers will use a blend of carefully selected silica building sands to ensure the grading is well distributed in order to obtain optimum performance and lowest water demand. Joe Public usually buys sand from a builders merchant, the quality of which can vary significantly depending when and where bought.
3. Admixtures and additions. Most manufacturers will use two or more admixtures and additions to enhance the performance of the mortar. Depending on preference, these could be a combination of SBR, water-reducers, stabilisers, fine fillers etc.
4. Most manufacturers weigh all ingredients (the sand being dry, not wet). All materials are thoroughly mixed in purpose-built mixers. This ensures accuracy and consistency. Joe Public is not so careful often batching by volume and using sand of unknown and variable moisture content.
5. The dosage of pigments is determined by the manufacturers through extensive trials. To obtain the rich, darker colours requires a relatively high dosage up to an absolute maximum of 10% by weight of cement. The more pastel colours will be in the range 2.5% to 5% by weight of cement (posibly White depending on colour).
6. The finished product is routinely tested to ensure the quality is maintained.
As you can see, the quality and choice of materials and the processes employed by most manufacturers far exceeds that capable by Joe Public. These companies spend a lot of time and money on development which obviously reflects in the price of their products.
However, if you’ve you got the know-how and you’re entirely confident in what you’re doing, the cost of hand-mixed mortar can be a fair bit cheaper than the pre-packed alternative , the latter being typically £25-30 per 25kg bag. For a 3:1 mortar, the maximum equivalent hand-mixed cost would be somewhere in the region of:
a. Cement (Lafarge Procem bagged 52.5 N/mm2 CEMI) = 6kg x £0.50 per kg = £3.00
b. Sand (assuming a very good quality building sand) = 18kg x £0.25 per kg = £4.50
c. Pigment (say mid-high range dosage at 7.5% by weight of cement) = 0.45kg x £8.00 per kg = £3.60
d. SBR (a third of normal recommended dosage of 10 litres per 50kg cement) = 0.4ltr x £3.50 per ltr = £1.40 – note, SBR is my preference, others may not get on with it and use a water reducer (plasticiser) instead – never use Fairy liquid!!!
Although about 50% cheaper at £12.50, you’ve still got to batch it accurately and mix it thoroughly to be consistent.
Personally, for all the DIY’ers out there, if you can afford it, go for the likes of Easipoint – it has the tried and tested technology to back it up.
London Stone Paving wrote:Even the concrete products supplied by Marshalls and Bradstone etc will fade away eventually. I think that only the outside surface of these products is dyed, so if you get a scratch or a chip, doesnt matter how good the dye is. You will be left with unsightly concrete.
Back on to subject, I've used pigments on many occasions and the colour is never anything like you expect it to be and they always fade further over time.
You say its difficult to use pigments, I'll definately agree with you on that. All the guys on here are very competent people and if they struggle to use pigments effectively, then pigments are not a suitable product to be used by anybody except specialist pigment contractors (if such a thing exists )
Whats the point in struggling with something when there are better products ( easipoint ) out there
Personally I think you're confusing weathering with fading. I have a Marshall's patio that was laid more than ten years ago and when it has been washed down it's almost exactly the same colour that it was the day it was new as are the charcoal grey roof tiles on my kitchen extension - also over ten years old. Are they dirty in areas, do then have moss growth in shaded areas - yes of course they do and in some ares that accounts for a difference in colour.
With regards to people struggling to use pigments effectively - I think it's because they don't want to put in the time to learn how to use them effectively - not that they are so difficult to use that no one can use them without being an expert. Now as a contractor I can understand that to some degree - they want to bung it in and move on to the next job. But that's not always in the best interest of the client - particulary if they want 'something different'. Granted most of the patio's in the UK seem to be 'Buff!!
Carberry wrote:[quote=Whats the point in struggling with something when there are better products ( easipoint ) out there.
And they cost a fortune compared to easypoint.
[/quote]
Easier does not always equate to better.
As for cost - Powdered pigments are far less costly simply because they make up a very small amount of the material in a hand-mixed mortar - and you can always make up your own mortar mix at a fraction of the cost of an off the shelf product, as Brucieboy pointed out. A 25Kg bag of a Dark Brown pigment will set you back about £85 - even if you assume a stong pigment concentration in the mortar that should be enough to point over 300 square metres of patio surface assuming a joint 10mm wide and 25mm deep.
Mr Brucie Boy, I am in awe of you and your knowledge of all things concrete.
Bruce, I dont dispute what your saying at all. Sounds like if you know what you are doing, it could be very cost effective to mix your own pigments. But Mr Brucie Boy pointed out a hell of a lot of variables which could effect the consistency of the mix. And even if you do find the time to get it right, would you have the time to go and train all your lads up in it as well.
We stock 6 different easipoint colours and I cant recall one occasion when a customer has not liked one of the colours available. Its definately given me food for thought though, because I'm sure one day an architect will come in to the shop looking for a wierd and wondeful pointing colour.
Pigments aside how is the rest of the project coming along?
London Stone Paving wrote:Mr Brucie Boy pointed out a hell of a lot of variables which could effect the consistency of the mix. And even if you do find the time to get it right, would you have the time to go and train all your lads up in it as well.
We stock 6 different easipoint colours and I cant recall one occasion when a customer has not liked one of the colours available. Its definately given me food for thought though, because I'm sure one day an architect will come in to the shop looking for a wierd and wondeful pointing colour.
Steve, A lot of variables could effect the consistency of the mix - but that's true of concrete, mortar or render regardless of whether you use pigments or not. Each has endless variables which when tweaked this way or that will adjust the respective mixture to meet different specifications. Would you have the time to train up the crew? Depends on the type of work you are doing (and how often you are doing it). Pigments wouldn't be for every application, quality products like Easipoint do fill a necessary part of the market - but then Easipoint won't suit every application either. If you do have a designer, architect or client who want's 'something different' then pigments give you another string in your bow. One that might mean you get the job instead of the next guy. In that event you'd only have to train one or two of your best guys who could then do that job whenever it came along.
On the surface pigments can appear to be a really complicated product to use - in reality it doesn't have to be that way. The problem comes when people don't test or if they do, their measurements are completely useless when it comes to trying to scale that testing up to a production level (just how many teaspoons are in a cubic metre?). If you know that your test block used 300g of cement and 15g of pigment then you have numbers you can work with. It does help if you have just the right amount of anal tendencies in your personality.
mnlad743 wrote:It does help if you have just the right amount of anal tendencies in your personality.
I reckon you would get on well with my old man. He's the most anal person I know. He designs lines to mass produce bakery products. Everything he does, takes ten times as long as it should but you have to just stand back in awe because the end result is flawless. He's coming down to mine at the weeknd to help me remove a chimmney breast. Pictures will follow.
Whats the crack then Bruce, you came on here asking questions about 2.16m circles, and now your teaching us all about pigments ?
London Stone Paving wrote:Whats the crack then Bruce, you came on here asking questions about 2.16m circles, and now your teaching us all about pigments ?
Actually I just piped in with some info on Pigments as a couple of the other posters were dishing out what I felt was misleading info on the subject - I didn't start this mess!
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