Flowpoint - Cracking up

[mickavalon]

Not sure if any body on here actually uses Flowpoint, but anyway, has any one used it and had any comeback problems? I did a favour for a mate, at the end of last year, and pointed a Patio(260m2) on a large property which we had quoted for but got under cut!! The installers, working for the Builder, had done a very shoddy job, got paid and legged it without finishing.
The original idea had been to use Geo fix, but I'd said I wasn't going to use it and said we'd be better off using Flowpoint, which we've used for over 3 years now, no issues.
Did the job, everyone happy and everyone sorted out for xmas. I then have a call 2 weeks ago that there is a problem with the Pointing and can I attend. 2 areas of the Patio(approx 15m2) have appeared to have blown, and are flaking out of the joints. At first I thought it was frost, but only 2 areas have suffered it and nowhere else. If you scrape out the loose, it solid underneath, but with a flawed finish. Has anyone come across this, is it bad batches of mix, bad mixing ,or maybe very locallised frost damage.
I'm calling the manufacturers today, but wondered if anyone else had had this issue?

[mickavalon]

If anyone's interested, the "experts" have stated that it's possibly Frost Damage, but could also be a combination of poor laying, thin beds, poorly prepared sub-base, in that the Paving/pointing is drawing up water from underneath, delaying or preventing the Flowpoint setting, and thus the Frost may have then damaged the surface.
Great!! I'm now being asked/told to replace possibly all of the flowpoint, as it seems to not be so localised anymore, out of my own pocket, including grinding out, an area 250m2, and I did it first time as a favour, and to pay of a small debt(£350.00). Lifes great!!

[lutonlagerlout]

there is one thing for sure mick
their experts are never going to accept any blame whatesoever
same when i had the degussa reps out relating to geofix
joints to shallow ? 38mm slab = 38 mm depth in my book
joints too narrow 10mm
trees around
frost
poor installation
rain
dogs
250m2 is an awful lot to swallow
might be an idea to tell them to jog on
LLL

[local patios and driveway]

I thinkits high time people on the brew cabin stop recommending these pointing products, they are crap. Its never been more apparent then now

[cookiewales]

Who s flowpoint was it Mick frost should not damage it unless done in frost what were the setts and depth of bed and base to draw that much water in would be a very high water table

[Brucieboy]

Mick - did you do anything different on this job - you said you've used it successfully over the last three years. Am I correct in assuming it's Ultrascape Flowpoint Rapid Setting Grout (not the ECO version) from Instarmac. If yes, their rep's comments seem a bit thin.

When you were laying it:
Were the joints free from debris?
Was the paving pre-soaked, kept wet (but no ponding water) throughout the laying process?
Did you use the specified amount of mixing water and was it mixed properly (3 to 5 minutes)?
Was it pushed around with a rubber squeegee and brushed off using lots of water after the initial set?
Did you only mix sufficient to lay in 4 minutes? It's designed to go off quickly, hence the name Rapid - see comment below.
Was the temperature during laying and overnight above 2 or 3 degC, i.e. no frost?

If the answer to all the above is yes, I can't see what you've done wrong.

Looking at this stuff, the most critical issue appears to be it's rapid setting properties. If you look at their Safety Data Sheet you'll see in addition to silica sand (30-60%), it contains Portland cement (10-30%), Calcium Sulfoaluminate cement (CSA: 1-10%) and High Alumina cement (HAC: 1-10%) possibly along with one or two other special additives. It's the CSA and HAC in combination with the Portland cement that gives the rapid set (established technology). However, if you muck around with these materials for too long, the chemical reaction, hence performance, is affected significantly - that's why they specify only a very short working life of 4 minutes. Adding extra water to liven it up is a complete no-no.

The rep's comment about drawing water from the bedding/sub-base doesn't hold up in my book. You are required to pre-wet the paving and keep it wet during the laying process. As long as the joints aren't filled with ponded water it should be OK to lay. It can be trafficked very soon after laying (hours) so it should be able to withstand frost damage after 24 hours.

If it is the Instarmac product as described above, I'd either call them back or at least write a formal letter of complaint to their MD stating the facts. You may not get a complete payout but they may offer some form of compensation, particularly if you've used it successfully for three years. I think it's worth a try.

If it's another manufacturer/product let us know.

[local patios and driveway]

I thinkits high time people on the brew cabin stop recommending these pointing products, they are crap. Its never been more apparent then now

[lutonlagerlout]

deja vu dan?
i agree wholeheartedly
sand a cement tried and trusted technology
all these new wonder potions dont last 5 minutes unless they cost 50 quid a metre
LLL

[Brucieboy]

LPAD – just to clarify, I’m certainly not recommending this product, just pointing out the technology behind it to assist another BC member in trying to redress some of the points raised by the rep – assuming it’s the one been used. As LLL states, in most cases a rep will say it’s not their product at fault, only something you’ve done wrong. If you’re going to have a pop at the manufacturer it’s best to have a bit of product knowledge up your sleeve. Personally, I wouldn’t use or recommend the specially formulated highly fluid and/or rapid set jointing materials for paving as they rely on lots of constituents working effectively at the same time – the technology behind some of them is very sensitive.

[DNgroundworks]

Ive used the two part resin slurrys before from gftk pretty good in my book, had the guy out and he physically showed us for around 4 hours how to install, so if that goes wrong hopefully ive got some comeback!

I aint gonna use any 1 part polymeric stuff now! easipoint for me

[mickavalon]

Cheers Brucieboy, yes it's Instarmac. We did everything the same as usual, and we've never had problems before, but we never laid the paving, so I don't know about the methods used, apart from the cross-falls are shite, but anyway. I do get your commentb about not using these products, but we've found them excellent and economical in terms of labour saved, but still getting an excellent end product. We only use flowpoint for setts, cobbles and lower end Stone paving, because I felt the variable finished joint widths, especially with Tumbled slabs, flowpoint gave us better finishing results due to it's self levelling properties. With higher spec materials we use either exterior Grouts, Gun injected mortars, or good old hand mix, because with smaller joint widths, flowpoint isn't suitable. We will however look carefully into future use, and this will be penned into a letter to Instarmac, as you say.
LLL, lpad, old skool sand and cement is also open to lots of problems, as many of us have found out, so trying new products is rational, a lot of tadesmen used to lay on 5 spots, and we all know where that goes, so I will recommend if I think it's a good product, but equally any issues with said products need to be aired as well, don't you think?

[lutonlagerlout]

you are bang on mick
I am always up for new ideas and techniques
if they work consistently
LLL

[Brucieboy]

Mick - I totally agree it's important for users to air their views about any product, good or bad. That way, over time, other people will make their own minds up whether to try them out or not. That's the benefit of this forum.

[mickavalon]

We've resolved to do approx 25m2 of the Pointing again. The main sticking point has been that I was contracted to my Plant/aggs supplier to do the work, and he's owed £15k+ plus by the Developer who's holding out till the pointings done again. They've been arguing over who does what first, and we've been stuck in the middle. Once the payments made, I've got a feeling the developer may not feel like contacting us again if any more breaks up, if you no what I mean.
Not a Good ending, as I feel bad for the client, but As we never laid the Patio, I'm glad to be able to have a get out, because it's going to go downhill rapidly.