Hi Tony, i hope you dont mind me picking your brains again?
Could you please tell me where i can get correctly trained in block paving.I have little experience in this game,but need to change my career and there is obviously a market for block paving.
I'm not a bluffer and like to do a job right first time rather than picking up the basics as i go along. Your site has masses of useful info which has really helped me, but i need to be shown as well really as my knowledge in groundwork is limited!
Hope you (or anyone else reading this!) can help.
Best Regards
Kevin
Hampshire
Block paving training - Where?
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Nigel Walker
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:28 pm
- Location: Cumbria
- Contact:
No disrespect pal, but if you have limited or no knowledge of groundworks and you have no experience in block paving I suggest you find something else to fill your time.
This trade - ( I call it a trade because it requires just as much skill and knowledge as Carpentry or Bricklaying ) - is full of people chancing thier luck and providing a bu****it job just because there is a market for it.
To be a block paver of groundworker, you have to have had experience - you cannot just go on a 2 day course, read a few brochures, ask a few questions and then go charging the general public for substandard work.
Sorry for spouting off, but this kind of talk just demeans our trade.
Nigel
This trade - ( I call it a trade because it requires just as much skill and knowledge as Carpentry or Bricklaying ) - is full of people chancing thier luck and providing a bu****it job just because there is a market for it.
To be a block paver of groundworker, you have to have had experience - you cannot just go on a 2 day course, read a few brochures, ask a few questions and then go charging the general public for substandard work.
Sorry for spouting off, but this kind of talk just demeans our trade.
Nigel
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Blockchip
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:57 pm
- Location: Hants
No disrespect pal, but if you have limited or no knowledge of groundworks and you have no experience in block paving I suggest you find something else to fill your time.NIGEL 'IM NOT LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO FILL MY TIME.IM LOOKING TO LEARN A NEW TRADE AND SUPPORT MY WIFE AND KIDS.
This trade - ( I call it a trade because it requires just as much skill and knowledge as Carpentry or Bricklaying ) - is full of people chancing thier luck and providing a bu****it job just because there is a market for it. I ALSO HAVE A TRADE BUT BECAUSE COMPANIES IN MY TRADE (ENGINEERING) DONT WANT TO PAY FOR APPRENTICES ANYMORE, THEY GET SOME BLUFFERS WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE JOB TO DO THE BREAD AND BUTTER WORK AND THEN LEAVE ALL THE TECHNICAL STUFF TO US TRADESMEN.THESE LADS ARE JUST HAPPY TO HAVE A JOB AND AS SUCH LET CONDITIONS AND WAGES DETERIORATE WITHOUT CARING, TO THE POINT WHERE WAGES HAVE BECOME A JOKE.
IF I WANTED TO 'CHANCE MY LUCK AND PROVIDE A BULLSHIT JOB' THEN I WOULD JUST GET ALL THE MASSES OF INFO FROM THIS SITE AND JUST 'HAVE A GO'...BUT THATS NOT ME.
I DONT EXPECT TO PICK THIS UP ON A WEEKS COURSE BUT IT WOULD GET ME STARTED ON THE RIGHT FOOT WITH THE CORRECT KNOWLEDGE AND MAYBE I COULD PICK UP THE REST BY WORKING FOR SOMEONE ELSE UNTIL I HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE UNDER MY BELT (ISNT THAT WHAT YOU DID?).
I FULLY UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM NIGEL,I KNOW HOW SICKENING IT IS TO SEE YOUR TRADE FLOODED WITH BLUFFERS, BUT I THINK YOU ARE BEING A BIT HARSH ON SOMEONE WHO EVIDENTLY DOESNT WANT TO CHURN OUT A LOAD OF S**T AND BRING THE TRADE INTO DISREPUTE, IM NOT LOOKING TO DO THIS AS A HOBBY!
To be a block paver of groundworker, you have to have had experience - you cannot just go on a 2 day course, read a few brochures, ask a few questions and then go charging the general public for substandard work.
Sorry for spouting off, but this kind of talk just demeans our trade.
IM NOT OFFENDED BY YOUR COMMENTS NIGEL,BUT I HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE, ALL IM ASKING IS WHERE DO I GO TO GET STARTED?
I AM QUITE PREPARED TO PUT IN THE TIME AND EFFORT TO LEARN A NEW TRADE BUT IT HAS TO BE ONE WITH A FUTURE,BLOCK PAVING HAS, I WANT TO BE PART OF IT,WORK HARD AND PRODUCE WORK THAT I CAN BE PROUD OF.
BEST REGARDS
KEVIN
Nigel
This trade - ( I call it a trade because it requires just as much skill and knowledge as Carpentry or Bricklaying ) - is full of people chancing thier luck and providing a bu****it job just because there is a market for it. I ALSO HAVE A TRADE BUT BECAUSE COMPANIES IN MY TRADE (ENGINEERING) DONT WANT TO PAY FOR APPRENTICES ANYMORE, THEY GET SOME BLUFFERS WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE JOB TO DO THE BREAD AND BUTTER WORK AND THEN LEAVE ALL THE TECHNICAL STUFF TO US TRADESMEN.THESE LADS ARE JUST HAPPY TO HAVE A JOB AND AS SUCH LET CONDITIONS AND WAGES DETERIORATE WITHOUT CARING, TO THE POINT WHERE WAGES HAVE BECOME A JOKE.
IF I WANTED TO 'CHANCE MY LUCK AND PROVIDE A BULLSHIT JOB' THEN I WOULD JUST GET ALL THE MASSES OF INFO FROM THIS SITE AND JUST 'HAVE A GO'...BUT THATS NOT ME.
I DONT EXPECT TO PICK THIS UP ON A WEEKS COURSE BUT IT WOULD GET ME STARTED ON THE RIGHT FOOT WITH THE CORRECT KNOWLEDGE AND MAYBE I COULD PICK UP THE REST BY WORKING FOR SOMEONE ELSE UNTIL I HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE UNDER MY BELT (ISNT THAT WHAT YOU DID?).
I FULLY UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM NIGEL,I KNOW HOW SICKENING IT IS TO SEE YOUR TRADE FLOODED WITH BLUFFERS, BUT I THINK YOU ARE BEING A BIT HARSH ON SOMEONE WHO EVIDENTLY DOESNT WANT TO CHURN OUT A LOAD OF S**T AND BRING THE TRADE INTO DISREPUTE, IM NOT LOOKING TO DO THIS AS A HOBBY!
To be a block paver of groundworker, you have to have had experience - you cannot just go on a 2 day course, read a few brochures, ask a few questions and then go charging the general public for substandard work.
Sorry for spouting off, but this kind of talk just demeans our trade.
IM NOT OFFENDED BY YOUR COMMENTS NIGEL,BUT I HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE, ALL IM ASKING IS WHERE DO I GO TO GET STARTED?
I AM QUITE PREPARED TO PUT IN THE TIME AND EFFORT TO LEARN A NEW TRADE BUT IT HAS TO BE ONE WITH A FUTURE,BLOCK PAVING HAS, I WANT TO BE PART OF IT,WORK HARD AND PRODUCE WORK THAT I CAN BE PROUD OF.
BEST REGARDS
KEVIN
Nigel
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ken
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:07 pm
- Location: Leigh, Lancs
Start ringing round your local firms in spring when work picks up. explain your situation to them and ask for work. I doubt they will pay a trainee with a wife, kids and mortgage enough to live off though. That’s your best bet, as you say; you have to start some where. I worked for a firm for 7 years before I went on my own, and I was 21 years old and 5 years into this trade before I had the proper skills and confidence to tackle a domestic drive way with out making an arse out of it and my self.
Good luck.
Edited By ken on 1107850677
Good luck.
Edited By ken on 1107850677
Ken
KGC Block Paving
Leigh Lancashire
T:01942 601781 M:07989 376123
KGC Block Paving
Leigh Lancashire
T:01942 601781 M:07989 376123
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Nigel Walker
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:28 pm
- Location: Cumbria
- Contact:
Sorry if I came across a bit heavy.
I thought you were intending to just start up a company and lay drives with limited knowledge. A bit like all the roofers we have seen lately after the storms !
If you are serious about it then I would follow Kens advice.
From what Tony has been saying for the past couple of years there are not many actual training courses for this kind of work. So I would imagine you will have to get some experience with a contractor and then build up the confidence in order to start on your own.
I started in the construction game when I was 17 (I was helping my Dad on sites from the age of 11 - in school holidays and weekends). Within 2 years I was a Ganger and then running small civil jobs. At the age of 30 I had enough of working for someone else so I set up on my own. I admit it takes a bit of bottle , but if you have confidenece in your ability and are good with people you have a good chance.
There a times when I wish I had chose a different profession. It is very hard work being a Paver. Your joints will never be the same. I am writing this mid-morning because I am off today with a very sore back. An all to common occurance I'm afraid.
If you are serious about being a paver then good luck.
If you need any advice then I'm sure you know you are in the right place. Tony has an unbelievable amount of knowledge and there are always us contractors available for help.
Nigel
I thought you were intending to just start up a company and lay drives with limited knowledge. A bit like all the roofers we have seen lately after the storms !
If you are serious about it then I would follow Kens advice.
From what Tony has been saying for the past couple of years there are not many actual training courses for this kind of work. So I would imagine you will have to get some experience with a contractor and then build up the confidence in order to start on your own.
I started in the construction game when I was 17 (I was helping my Dad on sites from the age of 11 - in school holidays and weekends). Within 2 years I was a Ganger and then running small civil jobs. At the age of 30 I had enough of working for someone else so I set up on my own. I admit it takes a bit of bottle , but if you have confidenece in your ability and are good with people you have a good chance.
There a times when I wish I had chose a different profession. It is very hard work being a Paver. Your joints will never be the same. I am writing this mid-morning because I am off today with a very sore back. An all to common occurance I'm afraid.
If you are serious about being a paver then good luck.
If you need any advice then I'm sure you know you are in the right place. Tony has an unbelievable amount of knowledge and there are always us contractors available for help.
Nigel
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Tony McC
- Site Admin
- Posts: 8346
- Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 7:27 pm
- Location: Warrington, People's Republic of South Lancashire
- Contact:
There are some block paving training courses, but they are either a con, very expensive, or some sort of industry scam to fool the regulators and grant-givers into believing that training is available, but just isn't popular.
The CITB (Construction Industry Training Board) claims to run block paving courses via the National Construction College, but every time I enquire, I'm told there is no demand. Interpave, the Big Dinners organisation that is supposed to represent the block paving industry, ran an article in their latest "Aren't We Brilliant Mag" about a training course at ManCAT in Manchester, but again, when I asked for further info, no-one could tell me anything.
The CITB courses are usually quite expensive, around a grand for a week's training, plus accommodation and meals. Going off my experience with their other paving training courses (for flags and kerbs) they are a complete and utter waste of time. I had lads go on these courses when I was in the contracting business and I reckon they were very poor value for money. Further, they gave the lads a false impression that in just 4 days (and in the pub each dinner time) they were somehow just as highly 'qualified' as a time-served street mason who spent 4 years as an apprentice.
I've been asked on a number of occasions to provide training, and it's something I've explored with a number of the larger manufacturers. All but one of them went off the idea when they realised there was no real commercial advantage to themselves. To date, only Tobermore Concrete have actually provided any training program, and this was in Ireland, rather than in Britain.
However, it's something I will be exploring and pushing for during this year. I'd really like to set up monthly training schools, where we spend a couple of days teaching the basics of block laying to reasonably competent wannabee contractors, keen diyers, or even contractors looking to brush up their skills.
However, as Ken said, the only real way to learn the trade is to work on site for at least a couple of years, as that's the only way in which you can learn to deal with different challenges and the million and two problems we are expected to resolve each week. A Training Program, no matter how good it is, can only ever teach the basics, the essential principles. It cannot churn out 'fully-qualified' block layers. The correct course can produce potential block layers that understand the principles of block paving, and know how to do the job correctly, but they couldn't possibly be considered 'qualified' until they'd spent a good deal of time on site.
Going back to what I said about the manufacturers, around 3 years ago, one very large company asked me to consider the possibility of developing a training programme that would cover all the basic skills and principles of block laying. Their intention was to insist that every contractor on their 'Approved List' would have to complete the course - even those that had been working in the trade for donkey's years, so that when the company 'recommended' contractors to potential clients, they could be sure of their skills and the contractors would have no excuse for bodging the work. Sadly, just as the programme was being developed, the driving force behind the idea was 'poached' by another company and the whole plan fizzled out.
This is something that is close to my heart. The only way we can have an industry with any integrity is to have competent and rigorous training so that standards are maintained. I plan to continue haranguing the 'powers that be' no matter how annoying they find it to be, because unless those of us in the trade push for it, it won't happen.
As ever, if I do manage to get some form of sponsorship or co-operation for a training program, you'll hear about it here first.
The CITB (Construction Industry Training Board) claims to run block paving courses via the National Construction College, but every time I enquire, I'm told there is no demand. Interpave, the Big Dinners organisation that is supposed to represent the block paving industry, ran an article in their latest "Aren't We Brilliant Mag" about a training course at ManCAT in Manchester, but again, when I asked for further info, no-one could tell me anything.
The CITB courses are usually quite expensive, around a grand for a week's training, plus accommodation and meals. Going off my experience with their other paving training courses (for flags and kerbs) they are a complete and utter waste of time. I had lads go on these courses when I was in the contracting business and I reckon they were very poor value for money. Further, they gave the lads a false impression that in just 4 days (and in the pub each dinner time) they were somehow just as highly 'qualified' as a time-served street mason who spent 4 years as an apprentice.
I've been asked on a number of occasions to provide training, and it's something I've explored with a number of the larger manufacturers. All but one of them went off the idea when they realised there was no real commercial advantage to themselves. To date, only Tobermore Concrete have actually provided any training program, and this was in Ireland, rather than in Britain.
However, it's something I will be exploring and pushing for during this year. I'd really like to set up monthly training schools, where we spend a couple of days teaching the basics of block laying to reasonably competent wannabee contractors, keen diyers, or even contractors looking to brush up their skills.
However, as Ken said, the only real way to learn the trade is to work on site for at least a couple of years, as that's the only way in which you can learn to deal with different challenges and the million and two problems we are expected to resolve each week. A Training Program, no matter how good it is, can only ever teach the basics, the essential principles. It cannot churn out 'fully-qualified' block layers. The correct course can produce potential block layers that understand the principles of block paving, and know how to do the job correctly, but they couldn't possibly be considered 'qualified' until they'd spent a good deal of time on site.
Going back to what I said about the manufacturers, around 3 years ago, one very large company asked me to consider the possibility of developing a training programme that would cover all the basic skills and principles of block laying. Their intention was to insist that every contractor on their 'Approved List' would have to complete the course - even those that had been working in the trade for donkey's years, so that when the company 'recommended' contractors to potential clients, they could be sure of their skills and the contractors would have no excuse for bodging the work. Sadly, just as the programme was being developed, the driving force behind the idea was 'poached' by another company and the whole plan fizzled out.
This is something that is close to my heart. The only way we can have an industry with any integrity is to have competent and rigorous training so that standards are maintained. I plan to continue haranguing the 'powers that be' no matter how annoying they find it to be, because unless those of us in the trade push for it, it won't happen.
As ever, if I do manage to get some form of sponsorship or co-operation for a training program, you'll hear about it here first.
Site Agent - Pavingexpert
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Paverman Dan
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:27 am
To be honest, I'm not 100% sure why ANYONE would want to be a paver installer besides the lucrative opportunities. It's physically brutal work, and a lot of homeowners are ignorant asses and ballbusters that think they know more than you because they read a brochure or clicked on a manufacturers website.
I frankly am very suprised by the lack of training opportunities in the UK, considering how far more advanced that paving industry is on the right side of the Atlantic than here in the U.S..
I dont expect you to fly to the United States, so I'd get hooked up with
www.icpi.org
where there is a wealth of information for you to invest in and study, and online or CD-rom self taught courses that would be very helpful if you are truly interested in learning, if you will couch them with the fact that atmospheric and soil conditions and installation practices in the United States and the UK vary. At the very least I'd subscribe to ICPI Magazine.
That said, Nigel and Tony are right: one week on a jobsite= one year of classroom expereince, IMHO!
I frankly am very suprised by the lack of training opportunities in the UK, considering how far more advanced that paving industry is on the right side of the Atlantic than here in the U.S..
I dont expect you to fly to the United States, so I'd get hooked up with
www.icpi.org
where there is a wealth of information for you to invest in and study, and online or CD-rom self taught courses that would be very helpful if you are truly interested in learning, if you will couch them with the fact that atmospheric and soil conditions and installation practices in the United States and the UK vary. At the very least I'd subscribe to ICPI Magazine.
That said, Nigel and Tony are right: one week on a jobsite= one year of classroom expereince, IMHO!