Overlaying paving on existing stoop - Front stoop and walk

[LandscapeMann]

HI, i have a project to install for the inlaws.
#1 There is a 4'-10" X 4' (1.2m) existing front stoop Thick, soung good cond. no cracks or settling.

#2 It is tied into the house with thick re bar and appears to be part of the foundation pour. There is also a existing front walk section that steps down from front stoop. Same size and condition

#3 I want to overlay the above with some type of paver that can be installed with paver glue, can I acheive a stable, true, sound, neat long lasting surface with out fear of failing to to frost heave or other problems,

#4 I wish not to use mortar for fear of future cracks from FT cycle.

#5 The 20' X 1.2m side walk that joins the above I want to excavate the shit concrete and lay paving blocks as per usual specs.

Tony I have more patio, steps/ drainge to do in the back yard.

Tony I will send before after and during pics, shoud be a nice
project. Plus as a site supporter I will send you a slice of the profits for your online consulating work. Which shoud be made a regular feature of your web site> I can assure you many others will do the same. If you can respond with a pay pal address and the money is on the way

[Tony McC]

I've mentioned before that I know next to nothing about the US market, but you're welcome to what few nuggets of knowledge I may have.

I'm not sure how successful you'd be using a 'glue' to affix pavers to an existing substrate. The main problem, judging from European blocks, is variation in block thickness - how well could this be accommodated by a 'glue'?

The obvious answer would be to use a thinset mortar, but you've already said you don't want to go that route, so all I can suggest is finding some form of 'glue' (which I suspect would need to be an epoxy resin sort of product) that can be laid to thicknesses of around 6mm, so that the shallowest of the poavers can be adequately supported by the glue when it cures.

As to where you'd find such a 'glue', or what it might be called, I can't say, but maybe one of our other North American Correspondents can help?

[LandscapeMann]

Thanks Tony,
The paver bond that I have used many times for glueing "cap
blocks" on retaining wall projects. Once it is setup and fully cured (48 hrs. If my memory serves me right) The bond is very strong. But I will have to look at the compatability between the two surfaces as you point out. I will try to find out if my paver supplier has run into this.

The thinset pavers sound like a good possibility.
I don't recall that there is any noticable variation of thickness.
But that is a great point if they do vary. I will dry lay the pavers on my existing stoop to see if there is any variation in thickness.

I would certainly consider the thinset mortar if it works in our climate. I just don't have any personal experience with mortar.

Thanks for the info, it helps me get some possibilites of what I might be able to do in this situation.
Thanks,
LM

[Paverman Dan]

Landscape Mann,

Tony might take PayPal, but I prefer cold hard cash!

Your on the right track- the concrete is good and sound, and that is important since imperfections in the concrete will be reflected in the pavement.

As for different thicknesses on the pavers; according to ICPI guidelines, there is 1/8" tolerance up or down that is allowed for height differences in pavers. So, if a paver is speced at
2 3/8", if it is in reality between 2 1/4" to 2 1/2" thick, it is considered acceptable under ICPI standards.

However, to get all the pavers NEAR PERFECT, just change the size of the bead in the glue. Maybe have more than one tube in a caulk gun ready, one with a smaller cut out and one with a larger one. The size of the bead will affect the final height of the paver, if left untouched until the glue dries.

I would actually consider letting the bead of glue dry for 20 minutes or so; then gently set the paver on it. If its a good masonry cement, it will still hold. I'd experiment first though.

I also like that you will lay out the step veneer before applying the glue. This will not only help you check the height of the pavers, but also help you determine cuts.

As for the steps, a few helpful hints:

-Glue the risers, then glue the FRONT EDGE of the step above, with a 1/2-3/4" overhang as if you were doing a soldier course to give it the true look of a step. Fill in behind the front edge with 4 1/2 x 6 or 4 x 8 pavers going in a perpendicular direction, then cut in the rest to the riser as needed (the reason for this is . . and I am assuming, you are using 6x9s for your front edge . . . . so, most steps are about 11-13 inches deep . . . 9" deep on the front edge does not leave you with much room to work with behind them)

When putting in the front edge, put glue in between the front part of the joints; otherwise, if you want to put sand in between the joints, it will simply slip out under the overhang onto the step below. I reccomend one day for the glue to dry before sweeping in the sand.

-DONT COMPACT GLUED PAVERS!



Edited By Paverman Dan on 1097541606

[LandscapeMann]

Paverman Dan,
Thank you for your excellent in depth reply! Great points.
I am actually just making 1 step up from a 5'X5' side walk section to the same size stoop. The rise is 5.5".
Do you think I should glue verticle pavers (cut to 5.5") to the front (rise) of the stoop/step. Then perhaps use bullnose pavers with the 1/2" to 3/4" overhang as you suggest. I was thinking of using a contrasting but complementory color for the bullnose.

We were also considering using some form of thinset paver. But do to the fact that the adjoining side walk (in which the concrete has failed and is being removed) that meets the stoop/side walk section that I want to overlay. I would like to use the same paving type on both i.e. 2 3/8" salmon/charcoal blend Hanover or similar.
The only other challenge is I would have to raise the level of the adjoining side walk to meet the overlay height. But I dont' think that should be to much of a problem as I have 15' to where it meets the existing driveway to lose the 3" difference.

As far as the possibility laying them in mortar bed mix.
As far as using a overlay: Do you feel that the freeze thaw cycle defeats this method in our climate? I really don't know. As I have always laid all my pavers or bluestone walks/patios without mortar bed or otherwise.

As far as thickness I will have to remember to compare a bunch tommorow. We hand loaded and hauled about 400 back behind the house where I am going to be installing the patio.
Even if there is some slight variation. I am sure I could pick out enough consistent thickness pavers from the 400 sf. or so I am going to have. I think if anything I would be concerned about laying down a consistent network of glue beads. I wonder if once they are layed they could be flat edged tapped in place to be level and true. I think I will sacrifice some pavers and practice elsewhere first. That way I can show the practice paving to the inlaws to make sure they approve of the look before it becomes final on there front stoop.

[LandscapeMann]

Just a update:
I compleated the front walk and stoop/step as described.
Used paver bond. It turned out very well. The only difficuty was the existing stoop and walk were not layed out square.
So I had to do some adjusting to get everything to look correct.

If I can figure out how. I will post a picture if anyone is interested.

Thanks to Tony and Paverman Dan for the helpful suggestions.
LM.

[Tony McC]

There's a Help Topic on posting pictures, Dan, but if in doubt, send 'em along to me and I'll upload them for you.

[LandscapeMann]

Thanks Tony,
I will review the picture help to see if I can figure it out.
LM